I know there has been alot of discussion on what to do with the faction system. But i was thinking, why not keep it exactly the same as it is, so if u make a kill in monitored space you loose faction etc. But if you do an aggressive act and get temp kos. why doesnt temp kos last for 24hours. this means that player couldnt enter that space without getting shot for 24hours. This would stop the problem bojan was having. Although i can see this wouldnt stop the itani/serco problems. So UIT should be aloud any faction they like, but Itani/Serco must have hate/kos with the opposing side. Also if 5 you recieve 5 temp kos, in a certain time you should loose standing.

Someone with more than a room temperature IQ please just delete this idiotic idea.

Breazle: you might want to read this thread. It does cover some of the topics you're referring to, like having persistent temp KoS and the like.

However, it would not have helped Bojan's situation, as the people were being killed outside of monitored space. If we call any sort of hit, rather than death, an "aggressive act", that becomes rather uncomfortable for all that accidental cases where that occurs, requiring further complexities of "hit forgiveness" and all the irritations that might ensue from that during an intense combat situation.

The only obvious mitigating solution to Bojan's reported problem is to expand monitored space to the other side of a given border's wormhole. This at least prevents the would-be pirates from knowing exactly where there target is going to go (with a wormhole, only one possible destination instead of 255). Of course, this would irritate some people, as it expands Nation influence that much further, but only a single sector. It might also have very little applicable benefit, since most pirates follow close enough to see their target's destination anyway.

Strictly speaking, the best bet is to simply educate newbies about the limitations of the faction system, once it's reworked, along with any "holes" that may remain.

ok i fail lol

Current situation looks like this:
Worst case scenario: One pker sits on jallik side and shoots at jumping newbie cutting his health down to 5%. As soon as newbie jumps in Edras, another pker finishes him off. Rinse and repeat.

Best case scenario: One pker sits on jallik side, shoots newbie to 5%.
Unsuspecting newbie exits jump in Edras wondering wtf happened and how did his health go down to 5%, looks around in confusion, pker jumps after his revenant in his IDF valk and finishes him off.

Making wh sector monitored on the grey side could be a permanent solution for eliminating insta-kills and giving newbies, venturing on exploring the universe outside nation borders, a fair chance to escape alive.

P.S. @Incarnate: You can lose anyone following you if you do a few jumps thru empty sectors...IF your LOADING TIMES are at least similar to pirate following you, if your loading time is slower, you die.
Europeans will probably die more to American pirates but there is still a chance they will be able to get away.

Bojan: the case you described was mostly relating to ignorant newbies, who would probably not be able to do this anyway (skipping through empty sectors). A more experienced player would likely not have had the problem in the first place.

Any n00blet jumping into a Gray system deserves nothing but death, Bojan.

[Edit]Even the adjacent systems (Deneb/Eo, Jallik, Geira R., Pyronis, Initros, Arta C., Azek, Verasi) should be places they know from Day One to be "less safe" and fear because of their proximity to Gray.[/Edit]

@Incarnate: Worst case scenario still stands, not just for newbies but for traders too.
That was just a side note on escaping pursuers if Grey-side wh sectors should be monitored again.

@Dr. Lecter I have to agree with you there.

bojansplash: Who are you referring to when you keep posting about these so called scenarios? I have been sitting at this WH for few weeks and I have never seen/done what you are talking about. I haven't even seen you there. As you posted in another thread, you are not in game often. You probably more post than play so where does your recent experience come from?

Did I kill (also) newbies there? Sure I did. Most of them in Edras I-2, some of them in Jallik E-15 if they were UIT. They all should stay in according nation space or be prepared to face a fight.

I have never engaged newbies in a group with other players or in Jallik to Edras WH jump. I haven't also seen anyone else to do so there.

You asked me to prove you wrong in your original thread on this. Wait, you accused me so YOU have to prove yourself right and me wrong.

Incarnate: Please consider that bojansplash may be wrong before doing some dramatic changes.

I am not going to post more on this set of lies.

Inco: you shouldn't feel the need to defend yourself or any others who are doing this.

Killing pilots who venture into grayspace is normal behavior. Pilots should be prepared for battle after EVERY jump. Hell, I STILL hit "u" after every jump, it's habit. Often, I need to hit ESC and then "X" since someone is waiting.

If newbs are not prepared, they should stay in the safe zones.

Grayspace is dangerous. So are systems bordering grayspace. That's the way it's SUPPOSED to be.

Lecter is right. He could be less caustic in his approach, but he is very obviously right.

So, prevalent opinion and firm statement in most replies is: NEWBIES MUST DIE!
Yet, most of you complain that VO needs more players.
I think VO needs more players too and my opinion is that we have to give newbies a chance to get hooked first. I may be in minority on this issue because most of you think that level 2 newbies are just good for target practice.
The fact is that dying in VO means little or nothing but newbies do not know that nor are they familiar with other game mechanics.

Most vets know my pirate chars and that I did not make my reputation by being a carebear.
I killed newbies too but also helped them any way I could, with money, advice, combat training...
I passed onto them knowledge that was given to me by even older vets who got ME hooked to the game when I was a newbie.
God knows some of the newbies I trained and helped became respectable pilots/fighters/pirates and I have their respect and gratitude forever.

When I heard about that Jallik/Edras practice, it just didn't feel right.
Everyone knows VO faction system is broken and everyone is exploiting it to a point with all POS standings and a myriad of other little tricks.
This particular situation just sounded very lame.
Like when you open your house door, your wife whacks you on the head with a baseball bat from behind and when you start falling down outside a maniacal killer shreds you to pieces with a machine gun.
During last year Incarnate made a lot of changes to newbie sectors and implemented defense turrets everywhere but... he also made a very big mistake by removing border stations in Edras. Now we have a situation that nation borders have smaller and less efficient defenses then newbie starting sectors. Basically this is all his fault. He made this border newbie killing tricks possible and he knows it.

And on a final note to respond to Inco who identified himself as the one using those tricks often: read my reply in that other thread carefully.
I said: "Prove me wrong. Help new players Instead of killing them repeatedly. And by all means do shoot all Itani above combat 3, their nation needs them lean and mean. :)"

Since english is not my first language, maybe i worded that poorly. Maybe i should have written: Prove me wrong by helping new players instead of killing them repeatedly?

Well, since this post looks a bit more constructive, I'll react once more.

First of all, let me to correct you.

I did NOT identify myself that I use those tricks at all. Re-read my posts once or twice more, please. You know, I repeatedly stated that I HAVE NEVER DONE those tricks/scenarios/whatever. Everyone could read what I wrote here so I would like to ask you kindly to speak for yourself.

Thank you for letting us know where you experience/opinion came from. You HEARD about it.

You corrected your statement, thanks for it. I am still not going to prove you wrong. I agree with you. It is the reason I am helping newbies and why I am NOT killing them REPEATEDLY, even in grey.

Some more facts. I am sitting at this WH MAINLY because I am killing NPC voys there. As of newbies, I usually see 1-2 of them there every day. Not that big deal and really not a reason one could sit there for.

Two reasons why we are talking about nothing here:

1) Like I said before, those things you HEARD about do not happen there.

2) As far as I know, dedicated "newbie space" is about to come. Newbies will come more experienced and above some levels into the real game space.

I really do not have more to say on this. Stop wasting your/our time here and go help newbies instead.

problem one: Only one person that can suffer standing loss per kill, no matter how many people contributed to the kill. If a ship is damaged in a faction space, then no matter who gets the kill, or where the kill takes place, the damaged ship should have the option to enforce standing loss. This option should be terminated when the ship docks, or traverses more than one wormhole.

problem two: border wormholes are not sufficiently marked to warn of danger. new players should expect a pirate on the other side of a wormhole.

problem three: border wormholes are too close. it is very easy to get from any major faction to any other major faction with a minimum of risk. This leave new players with a sense that the galaxy is overly tame (boring).

conclusion: The fact that newbs are getting killed at border wormholes means that they are not receiving proper warning of the dangers, are getting away with it too much, or are just plan stubborn. would be nice to reduce that list of reasons to just stubborn...

If a ship is damaged in a faction space, then no matter who gets the kill, or where the kill takes place, the damaged ship should have the option to enforce standing loss.

Roda-to-Standard: I AM SOFA KING WE TODD DID!

I completely understand there is an issue with differentiating an aggressive act from an accidental attack in nation-space. Nevertheless, there is a bit of a problem posed by griefers in Jallik/Edras (for example). I believe 24hour KOS is too harsh, especially if the kill was an accident. Instead, I propose a slightly less harsh penalty: if a person attacks another player to below 50% (negotiable, that's just what I believe to be a decent percentage), he becomes temp NEUTRAL for one hour (with a dialog explaining why). This penalty will allow the griefed to take revenge upon the aggressor without losing faction standing for that hour, and will also prevent the aggressor from buying faction-ships for that hour.

If a newbie accidentally attacks another player, they are a newbie... they probably can't get good faction-ships anyways (so the penalty doesn't really affect them). Also, it makes for a good warning to the newbie about attacking ships is nation-space. The amount of time the person is made neutral for could also be determined by his levels. If the aggressor really is a newb (below 2/2/2 or 3/3/3/ or the like), his neutral time could be shorter (because he's probably only on the 8 hour trial, and it would suck for him to be neutral for 1/8th of his time).

If the aggressor is an experienced player, he should know better already, and the penalty is a slap on the wrist, but an annoying one since he is now vulnerable.

On a slightly related topic, I feel there is a bit of a problem that nations don't care if a person attacks a neutral person in their territory. I feel this change could be applied to that as well (with a reduced temp NEUTRAL time). I mean, a foreign national the cops don't know (and therefore don't dislike or hate) is walking down the street, and is shot by a citizen. The cops still persecute the citizen. Of course, we are dealing with a different galaxy and a few thousand years in the future, so things might have changed in that regard :).

If the aggressor is an experienced player, he should know better already, and the penalty is a slap on the wrist, but an annoying one since he is now vulnerable.

Right. Vulnerable. Because nobody would ever stockpile valks. Never happen.

The main point of making someone neutral is to make them vulnerable to attack. The inability to buy ships was an added bonus. One which, granted, could easily be worked around. I still think the idea has validity though due to introducing vulnerability of the aggressor.

Canceling a jump when damaged might help reduce at least the tactic of hitting a target as they are jumping out of faction space. A newb would see his jump canceled and that he is damaged, and could repair while still in the safety of faction space. A no fire zone could be placed around faction side of border jumps to reduce grief tactics.

I would like to see border jumps flank by big guns that look like they are ready to blast something. They should be poor shots so as to not totally stop pirate activity, but at least a newb should get an impression that he is passing a point of danger.

Jumping into gray badly damaged isnt very smart...

Some [thc] are damaging players severely in nation space and not killing them to avoid the faction penalty. Called "tickling" i think.... There will always be a way around the system.