To illustrate:

Major Nations are supposed to be the relatively "safe" areas (at least, more safe). Profits can be made here, ores can be mined here, etc. However, the greater profits should be found in grayspace. This is where the rarer ores will be located, and so on.

Unfortunately, I'm not yet ready to redo the entire ore loadout of the universe, including grayspace. In advance of this, however, we could reshuffle many of the trade items in the galaxy, pushing more trade into grayspace. Manufactured goods from the core nations might rise in demand there more quickly than usual, and special goods (demanded in the core nations) might only be available there, and so on.

This, in turn, pushes more traffic to grayspace and increases the potential for the "risk/reward" balance of braving the pirate-infested waters for greater benefit.

(Of course, greater meaning to finances is also important, and I'm working on that as well, so let's just leave the inflation issue out for the moment and focus on the discussion above).

I suggest having some of the more profitable escort missions go into greyspace. As it is now you can make 300k just by escorting ships from the starting systems to systems right next to them. The farther you do your escort, the more you should make. I'm sure there are other factors that control the credits you earn (such as cargo value, the number of ships you have to babysit, etc...). Ores that are found in Nationspace should also be worth a lot more in Greyspace, especially if that ore isn't found in Greyspace.

We could also make Escort missions within Nation space much lower profit than escorting through grayspace. Like say.. 10k to escort someone from Dau to Nyrius, but keep the 300k for taking someone from Dau to Sedina.

Anyway, this is aside from the main thrust of the thread, which is really just about reshuffling of trade items. Escort missions are a separate issue and should probably be handled in another thread. I mention it above as it, additionally, would help drive gameplay into grayspace.

Reshuffling would be great so that certain items can't be found in nationspace/greyspace. But the value would have to be higher as well and not be so easy to crash. Distance would also be important; an item that's only found in Itan would be very VERY valuable to stations in let's say.. Latos. And vice versa.

Considering that the base pay for escort should be based on merchhant proffit, distance & risk; then to a first approximation escort pay should be:

some useful scale constant *
log(merchant value) *
number of jumps required *
Risk category

Merchant value = some proxy for proffit to the faction generating the mission

Risk category =
A - stays in source nation space
B - destination in another nation space
C - destination in grey space
where A, B & C are constants that can be adjusted to suit.

Notice also that, if some valuable trade items are less available outside grey space, that an escort mission to/from grey space will get boosted by both increased proffit AND increased risk -- making these the big missions for people who don't want to mine or trade.

If players have incentive to seek out grey space escort missions, then this should make the game more interesting when player pirates drop in to "help" these missions. Such added spice may compensate a bit for the border turrets.

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that the best ores should be found in grey. Realistically, the nations would have been formed around the richest resources. And it would be a point of conflict between them. Just my opinion on that matter. My suggestion would be to make the best sell prices be at grey stations.

The biggest problem with trade, is that the best deals are in system trades, between 2 or more stations. For trade to be more profitable leaving the system or going into grey, you would have to increase the profit margin by over 1000cr (I'd say a minimum of 1500cr to be honest) per cube for every wh jump to make it worthwhile. This is based on the economy as it is. Any small increase in profit by currently going out of system is eroded by the additional time it takes moving the goods.

So, I'm left with the option of station killing if I want to pirate. Not a good option for me, because I wanted to be the only pirate with all 11 POS. Now I'm going to have to get 12 :(
(yes, I know there are 13 factions)

I would like to see non nation stations in Serco and Itani space. I'd like to see a mix of trade items made in nation space that have huge profits in grey and the reverse as well. So that people have a reason to run through grey.

I WANT SMUGGLING!!!!!!!!! I don't care if its goods, drugs or slaves!

As you've asked, I'll leave the money issue alone for now.

Seriously though, I don't see the turrets changing the nature of piracy. What makes piracy work in UIT space is the multitude of factions. So your either locking the pirates in or out. (never mind that one can get through fairly easily on most tries) What it does do, is restrict my ability to move something like aaps from Dau to Latos. Or run missions to build my standing with factions within UIT space. Or without if the goods are only found in UIT.

Personal opinion, VO should be a very dangerous place to play.

The best ores being found in gray is a core aspect of the future direction of gameplay: The Hive wants them, the minor Factions want them (and fight territorial wars over them), mining them is dangerous, and their availability impacts everyone else in the universe. Just because the resources had not yet been discovered when the other major Nations were settled is of little bearing.. after all, Itan was selected mostly as an optimal case for terraforming, not due to the resources in nearby asteroids. Sol II is the same. The UIT would have been resource-driven (since they don't terraform planets), but may simply have chosen resources that were relevant and available at the time (a thousand years before present day? or thereabouts). Historically, a lot of ore (say, Titanium, or Bauxite, as examples) are considered useless for a very long time, until technology catches up. The Romans would have had no use for either, looking instead for Tin and Copper (and later, Iron). So.. look at it this way.. the especially rare and useful ores in grayspace are relevant now, but weren't at the time of nation settling.

In other news, I do intend to change things beyond just turrets, to mitigate piracy within UIT space.. I know this current change is not that significant. Like I said in the other, general form post, one step at a time. I too want VO to be a dangerous kind of game, but I want "shades" of danger. Lighter shades in capitols, medium within nations, very dark ones in grayspace.

I also want smuggling, but I don't have a simple mechanic to make it happen yet ("Border Inspection" with a dice-roll of probability of finding smuggling cargo, the probability alterable with different smuggler addons, and so on.. I'm still trying to make capships not run into rocks). If people want to post ideas on Smuggling, please make a separate thread for that.

Anyway, getting back to just reshuffling of trade items.. I could have varying increases in profit as you go deeper into grayspace. Like mostly spread items in deep gray (like Sedina Chocolates type stuff) that are very high-value in nation territory. Does anyone else have any feedback on the 1000-1500cr per cu per jump ballpark?

I'd like to get some input from heavy traders and TGFT, if possible. Feedback on this process, possible implementations, and the pros and cons thereof.

That sounds good on the ore aspect then. I don't normally read the forums as I can't get them at work and if I'm usually ingame at home.

For what its worth, I am what you might call a 'bored' heavy trader. I've probably made about a billion and given most of it to a guild or favorite piratess or two.

I definitely like the 'shades of danger' concept.

Ok. one last edit then I'm gone for the night.

What I would like to see is more manufacturing. It looks like the framework already exists for items like the widowmaker or superlight. But what if we had to manufacture our lux items or consumer electronics (or other items that consistantly give a high profit margin? Maybe you need x amount of various ores, x amount of various widgets to make each item. You should have the capacity to use these items from storage rather than shipload as you'll be wanting to produce them in huge volumes. The actually manufacturing should be either free or a token cost.

Now that you've got your 100,000 units of product, the best sell price is 2 or 3 systems away where they don't manufacture the item. You've put in a lot of work, so you should be making a huge profit on it. Say 10,000cr per cube profit. I would also have it produce a small amount of waste from the manufacturing process, so that 50,000 cube of ore and 52,000 cube of cheap widgets produces 100,000 cube or units of finished product and 2000 cube is lost. Put enough out to cover a range of areas and items so the markets don't get tanked continuously by the same persons or groups.

I didn't really read the thread, and I barely read the first post, but GOOD GOD YES!
Wooo, good work! :D

The problem I think now is that when trading, you can often come across one-jump routes which yield several times the profit of the item you're selling, particularly within lesser-used stations in nationspace. The fact that such routes exist, and that Serco and Itani space are relatively safe for various reasons already, means that trading between backwater nation-space stations is very very much more preferable to trading through the dangers in grayspace.

I'm not entirely sure how the economy works on this point, but one of the reasons that these routes are viable is that you can stockpile masses of widgets in these stations, then sell them all at once for the same price. However, as you sell things singularly or in sets stations will reduce the price they buy tradegoods at. This coupled with the above seems to be one of the main reasons people don't trade through gray on a regular basis, usually only when they're doing a mission.

Also, reshuffling tradegoods would be a good idea as well. I'd love to see more valuable tradegoods in grayspace, but have them worth not so much in greyspace itself(since they're relatively abundant). But then also, the reverse should be true. Something from deep Itani space should sell well in, say, Corvus.

Hopefully the reshuffling should eliminate proftiable one jump routes within nation space, since the most valueable items will sell for the most in greyspace, and be worth near nothing while still in nation space.

Assuming that the manufacturing of the majority of finished goods still requires the infrastructure found in Itani/Serco/UIT space, a good number of the ship and weapon building commodities (Ship and Station Components and Weapon Components in particular) could be priced cheaper in (and/or partially relocated to) Grey Space where they are assumedly closer to the raw materials needed to build them (and the reason for those corporations to push into Grey Space in the first place).

Finished/Consumer Goods would be in high supply but low demand in Nation space with the opposite being true in Grey Space. The parts used to build them would be in low supply and high demand in Nation space and vice versa in Grey Space. Distance from the various Capital systems (and associated manufacturing infrastructure) could also be a factor. The introduction of future rare ores and player crafting plugs right into this paradigm and seems to be the direction Incarnate is heading.

The in-system trade route problem isn't the prices per se, it's the stockpiling that makes it massively profitable and problematic. Put a cap on how much of a commodity a station will buy at any one time with the requisite lowering of the buy price along with the redistribution of high-demand items and I think you'll see a lot more movement of goods between systems.

From the pirate/ trader perspective i'm most interested in the manufacturing concept. Move some low value stuff in nation space to make higher value stuff on the periphery. Move it into grey space and form it into very high value, and small volume goods. Bring it back to nation space for the best prices. This way traders will actually carry goods worth killing them for.

I would welcome any steps towards a true dynamic economy in which greater risk results in greater profit, and changing the availability of goods is a start. I would also welcome a shift in balance towards better profit / cu for long haul or dangerous (grey) trade routes.

There have been many good suggestions made for the operation of an economic model. In the long term a full model in which every station has a demand/unit time ( d/ut ) and a max storage capacity ( msc ) for every type of goods or ore and that demand reflects the prices paid and availability of their manufactured goods including ships and equipment.

The d/ut would reflect the size, population and manufacturing capabilities of the station. The demand could be supplied by either players or npc voys, but when sated at the msc the buy price would fall to zero .

To give an example consider aqueous ore. It is not mined because its max buy price is 72cr/cu . Lets say station A has a demand of 100 cu/day and an aq storage capacity of 1000 cu. The station manufactures lux goods. For every cu of lux bought from the station its reserves of aq reduce by 10 cu . At some miniumum aq level the station refuses to make Lux goods because its store of aq is low and increases its aq buy price.

Anyone who wanted to buy lux goods would therefore have to provide station A with aq.

The msc for each good at each station would also obviate the profitable but highly unrealistic tendancy for power trading ( Yes, I appreciate TGFT are experts at it ) I would love to see a Station tell a trader that its buy price for aq is 1000 cr / cu , but that the demand for lux goods is sated and that it just isn't buying any more . Long term , reducing ( or charging for ) the player storage/ station would reduce the tendency to create massive stockpiles which when sold crash a price for months .

I do appreciate that a matrix linking 300+ types of goods and equipment at 120 stations is not trivial , and that the setting of demands, capacities and prices is a serious task but long term I feel it would be the way to go.

In the short term adjustment of availability and max buy prices for specialist goods may encourage trading through grey . TGFT welcomes any changes which move VO forward , have a go at it Inc and see what happens

Ecka Estenk.

I agree with most of the suggestions but parts about higher profits only in gray space or time limits that dictate the price of items then jumps until they require it.

Yes, I agree that gray space should house the higher profitable ores and trade but it should not be exclusive to only gray space. The soon to be new ores and maybe items should be in nation space but in far far fewer numbers than in gray space. It would add flavor and seem reasonable to have very few but extremely high profitable trade routes and create competition.

Next, trade items that have a magikcal timer on item to make the prices go up doesn't reflect a true supply and demand economy. The price should naturally go when the items are bought and the station wants to procure more of that item. Of course players can't always be the buyer or seller for all the stations, so the other factions should conduct business in mining the ores they require for their local products they sell and other stations that require said products will have convoys to acquire them for their own reasons.

This can applied to the current missions and give them a direct impact on the economy.

Laws of economic, also physics for that matter, dictate that 'safe' shipping lanes use less energy for production and delivery thus lower cost to the end user. More risk (i.e. going into gray space, past ion storms, past hive locations, past pirate activity, etc) uses more energy and less resources get delivered thus raising the cost for the end user.

Here is my solution and what I would love to see happen.

Convoy attacks by anything/anyone, player pirate guild(s), npc pirates, ion storms and hive attacks/movements would directly increase the cost to the end user. i.e. you buy an item for 1,000 credits in nyrius and take it to bractus. Along the way you encounter several ion storms, pirate attacks (guild or npc) and what not. The price that you sell to the station is drastically increased after those trigger events, also the longer the run the more income you get depending on the rarity of the item in question.

Some items would be produced only in system X at station Y. those items would be raised in price the longer you have to travel to deliver them also in short supply. The shorter the supply the higher the cost and higher the yield, also the greater the risk.

Shipments with in a safe area would be low buy and low sell costs to the end user (the player) thus lower profits and easier delivery.

Manufacturing cost. If you have to truck in materials to make item A then the same rules apply from above about delivery. Thus the cost to 'buy' an item would greatly go up in certain stations.

What this would do is greatly increase the buy cost to the end users at certain stations in gray space based in player participation also force users to engage in various income production activities because the cost of doing stuff in gray space would be way high. i.e. see the russian ipod/iphone issues and how the prices on the 'black market' is 2x+ higher than retail cost)

ore:

Ore would be considered real estate rights. History has proven time and time again that wars are often fought over land rights. If you put high yield, rare ores in protected nation space then you would essentially alienate pirate guilds and others who could not go there so the best solution is this.

Rare ores should be a higher density in gray space. Yes put some in protected nation space as well for education, base missions, novelty and the like. the greater number would be in conflict areas and the hive, pirates (npc and player) would compete with the locations causing conflict and drama which would create ore wars and border conflicts. Create markets where rare ores would be in high demand, I mean like super high demand and super high profit margins from them.

Currently pentric is the rares of the rare, numbers are UNDER 500 total verse wide. By default this should be the most sought after and highest priced ore yet it is not. (see pladium, platnium, gold, silver, rhodium prices for a comparison to rare ore prices)

Create a 'stock market' that would trade rare ores and their spot value would increase or decrease based on game news, i.e. hive invastions, pirate activity, ion storms, random events like the phase array thing in the daily trade logs, etc.. Make it emotional like the stock markets really are. Station news items would affect it as well (since they are filtered from the forums and selectively posted) i.e. mining convoy events, public event outcomes and the like. (see oil prices with attacks on tanker ships and pump prices reflecting changes)

rare ore could also be used as a hedge fund and inter nation exchange rates. Say each nation could have their own type of credit that is local only, i.e. deneb credits where you can buy things in deneb only at a reduced rate due to local only trade goods. have a consortum based on faction standing of that system/faction (i.e. tpg credits) which would offer discounts to traders based on the above. I.e. i goto a TPG station and buy trade good/ore X with TPG credits they know that I can only buy/sell that items at another TPG station so they give me the special rates. This would further help the station news and the stock market by providing good news to the system.

Recovery prices, currently if you sell 20,000 trade goods it will be some time before the price recovers. It should be based on a we need X items per month of item(s) Y and the delivery rate can not go above what their inventory storage will hold. If inventory falls below a set amount then the end prices will drasically increase for the buy amount. This would ensure that trade goods could make a good hefty profit by taking more risk and even a lower amount of items would net a higher amount of profit. After all by jumping from system A to system B you drasically decrease your trade goods per time ratio and your profits goes to hell. need some mechanism to overcome this problem.

Alright, I'll argue this both ways:

FIRST WAY:

Large Nations do not want to let groups of pirates have the best systems with ore. Large Nations would grab as many grayspace systems as they could in order to control the resources.

So, if all three nations KNOW that the best ore is in Grayspace, why aren't they annexing those systems and consolidating their presence there? If there's only ferric ore in Sol, but Sedina has loads of Pentric and Helio, then if I was in charge, the Serco Empire would be well on its way to making Sedina its new Capitol.

So, in terms of reality and common sense, there's no reason to explain the overweighted presence of all the most valuable ore in grayspace. Unless there's a new group of ore that will be "discovered" with values above heliocene.

SECOND WAY:

Now, if all the most valuable ore is located in nationspace, then VO becomes boring, since the safe zones contain the best mining, and will therefore contain the best crafting. There won't be any danger from pirates and opposing forces, due to the new turrets and defenses. VO will become a two-team sport, essentially, with just constant warfare in Deneb and not too much else going on.

I think we need to propose a "THIRD WAY". The ore obviously needs to be in grayspace. The nations obviously cannot have control of these systems, otherwise the game will stagnate. I'm thinking along the lines of a galactic event (say, a supernova) in the area of Pelatus/Odia/Bractus. This would spread the new ore throughout the grayspace area, not only creating a coverstory for the ore reshuffling, but also making those areas dangerous for settlement, which is why the nations can't make stations there, but still need to get those new minerals.

Whaddya think?

Just a quick reaction to the original post...

Grey should absolutely be more profitable, because of two aspects. Danger, and lack of availability. The vast majority of all trade goods should be bought from the manufacturing powers of nation space, and shipped TO grey space, which ships raw materials back to nation space. The ores in nation space should be spent and exploited, but the variety and production of all sorts of goods should favor the nations. In this way, the majority of trade will cross borders. There shouldn't be as much demand for trade within any nation or within grey space- availability would be high and handled by regular carriers. It would be a great training ground for future traders, in other words. The profitable trade, however, ought to require crossing a border.

I know I didn't read everything so hopefully this hasnt been said yet...

If all the ores and the like will be in grey space and all the Nation space has been settled for a long while. Why not "force" trade between them by giving basic components like Ore and materials reduced profits within grey but vastly increased ones within Nation space. Similar for manufactured goods, low profit in nation space but high profit in grey on items such as technology and high end components. Essentially making the "good" routes multi system ones between nation and grey space.

Grey Space
Ore
Materials - Steel, Plasteel, Alloy
Basic Components - Hull Panels, Casings, Engine Mounts

Nation Space
High End Material - Electronics, Silk Steel
Technological Components - Phase Array, Replicators, Engines