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*edit* talk about mistakes. By missiles, I'm refering to rockets.
I'm biased. I use primarily missiles. But I have a valid argument here: Missiles are not as useful as they should be.
Missiles in vendetta don't have a proper place- They can be used to suppliment energy, but that's just about it. Any vessel that uses only rockets is going to run out of ammo unless they are an extremely good pilot. With 12 shots, even if get a direct hit every time, you're still going to be limited to around 6 kills (Assuming you are able to blow these people up in two hits. Which is a bit insane)
At the moment, any ship can easily outrun them. They are only really effective at a range of 150-300m, because they are slow enough that any ship can easily move out of range beyond that. They need some kind of buff- Be it moving them back to 16 ammo, or making them faster... I don't know what would be best. I just know they could use some change.
I'm biased. I use primarily missiles. But I have a valid argument here: Missiles are not as useful as they should be.
Missiles in vendetta don't have a proper place- They can be used to suppliment energy, but that's just about it. Any vessel that uses only rockets is going to run out of ammo unless they are an extremely good pilot. With 12 shots, even if get a direct hit every time, you're still going to be limited to around 6 kills (Assuming you are able to blow these people up in two hits. Which is a bit insane)
At the moment, any ship can easily outrun them. They are only really effective at a range of 150-300m, because they are slow enough that any ship can easily move out of range beyond that. They need some kind of buff- Be it moving them back to 16 ammo, or making them faster... I don't know what would be best. I just know they could use some change.
I'm inclined to agree. they should be...(imo)...faster and more accurate as well as having a better range. missiles and rockets, in my experience are used to destroy targets at great distance. if nothing else the missiles should have an effective range of 3x thier current range and rockets 2x the current range.
I'm pretty sure some one covered "target locks" already, but thats also not a bad idea.
I'm pretty sure some one covered "target locks" already, but thats also not a bad idea.
Yeah, missiles/rockets have traditionally been the bread-and-water of shiptoship combat. We need a mid-damage missile that is fairly fast (100ms?) and uses basic ai; when a target gets a far enough angle or distence away, it should at lower versions pick the nearest target, or it should just go dead or something. Should have ammo around 20, at least. (damage of around 800-1500 for different varients)
Missiles could be really really cool...Even if you just make a light version of the swarms meant for ship-to-ship combat.
Missiles could be really really cool...Even if you just make a light version of the swarms meant for ship-to-ship combat.
what? you guys have obviously never been in a fight against a tri-flare valk, or a prom with flares and AGT... Rockets are by far the most unbalanced weapon in the game, imho. They do massive damage, knock you senseless for a moment, and don't require any energy... oh, and rockets go 85m/s + your ships velocity. Just because you don't know how to use them to their full potential does not mean they should be buffed. A tri-flare valk pilot who knows how to rocket-ram is by far one of the most deadly combos in the game.
As for seeking missiles, they have a range of near 2km... which is several times further then any other weapon in the game (including the rail gun). Guided missiles should NOT be buffed to make them more useful against fighters, that's not what they're for. They are excellent anti-capship artillery, and they don't need much more then they already have.
Next you'll be asking for insta-kill lazors again =9 Stop crying and go practice your rocket-ramming already!!
As for seeking missiles, they have a range of near 2km... which is several times further then any other weapon in the game (including the rail gun). Guided missiles should NOT be buffed to make them more useful against fighters, that's not what they're for. They are excellent anti-capship artillery, and they don't need much more then they already have.
Next you'll be asking for insta-kill lazors again =9 Stop crying and go practice your rocket-ramming already!!
Rockets are not unbalanced, they are just fine.
Btw, whats this rocket ramming I'm reading about, hmm?
Btw, whats this rocket ramming I'm reading about, hmm?
Heh Drazed....
I've been using a rag as my primary ship since the end of the alpha test. I've used all the rockets, from screamers, to jacks to sunflares. I've used the homing missiles from swarms to gemis to fireflies. Rockets are not half as useful for any type of build as energy weps are. They aren't a smart choice.
Energy never runs out, does around half the damage, fires at double the speed, moves at a constant rate which is usually the average of rockets, and is significantly lighter.
Rockets don't even fit in with how ships are used in vendetta. We're not flying dinky little fighters that quickly pop in to dock with the motherboard; We're flying ships that can travel half the galaxy, that can open wormholes, and are generally very versatile. Missiles are going to be an increasingly large burden to pilots; they do double the damage for double the cost, double the weight, and they are much easier to dodge. Even worse, they are so limited in ammo, that it killing a fellow pilot is quite difficult; With energy, you can easily fire hundreds going on thousands of shots in duels. Duels can last a very long time. With rockets, you can't survive the rigors of space well.
Lighter ships can't use rockets because can't hold enough to really make any kind of dent in combat. They again, are restricted in how many opposites they can take out. They have 12 shots. Twelve. After that, it's game over and they have to run home to reload. That's a huge risk for any pilot to take; In the unlikely event that you send that rocket on it's intended trajectory to it's target, your opposite can still dodge it easily . With 12 shots, and for light vessels, you're going to need more direct hits to kill your opposite, things start to look a bit grim.
They don't fit very well into the Vendetta universe at the moment. That's why the topic says that they need to be re-evaluated, not necessarily buffed.
I've been using a rag as my primary ship since the end of the alpha test. I've used all the rockets, from screamers, to jacks to sunflares. I've used the homing missiles from swarms to gemis to fireflies. Rockets are not half as useful for any type of build as energy weps are. They aren't a smart choice.
Energy never runs out, does around half the damage, fires at double the speed, moves at a constant rate which is usually the average of rockets, and is significantly lighter.
Rockets don't even fit in with how ships are used in vendetta. We're not flying dinky little fighters that quickly pop in to dock with the motherboard; We're flying ships that can travel half the galaxy, that can open wormholes, and are generally very versatile. Missiles are going to be an increasingly large burden to pilots; they do double the damage for double the cost, double the weight, and they are much easier to dodge. Even worse, they are so limited in ammo, that it killing a fellow pilot is quite difficult; With energy, you can easily fire hundreds going on thousands of shots in duels. Duels can last a very long time. With rockets, you can't survive the rigors of space well.
Lighter ships can't use rockets because can't hold enough to really make any kind of dent in combat. They again, are restricted in how many opposites they can take out. They have 12 shots. Twelve. After that, it's game over and they have to run home to reload. That's a huge risk for any pilot to take; In the unlikely event that you send that rocket on it's intended trajectory to it's target, your opposite can still dodge it easily . With 12 shots, and for light vessels, you're going to need more direct hits to kill your opposite, things start to look a bit grim.
They don't fit very well into the Vendetta universe at the moment. That's why the topic says that they need to be re-evaluated, not necessarily buffed.
Yeah. Rockets don't work at all on light ships...
Rockets are popular, everybody whines about how overpowered they are. Rockets are unpopular, people whine about how underpowered they are.
I am amused.
I am amused.
While we're buffing Sunnies and Jacks, my Aggresso doesn't have nearly enough spin torque or armor -- this puts the centaur at a serious disadvantage in a fight, whatever shall I do?..... :)
Rogue, it's not that they're underpowered They are just over valued. They suck compared to energy weaponry.
The proximity detonation makes them not suck.
Missiles suck, rockets do not, even ice flares are usable, and they have 16 ammo, want them to fly faster or go further? Use yer damn turbo key.
Missiles are pretty much useless though.
Missiles are pretty much useless though.
Lighter ships can use rockets just fine...
And do you really want vo's primarey weapons to be missiles?
Where's the fun in that?
[edit]Oh wait, or are you not making that usual rocket/missile distinction?
Ok so if you mean rockets then.. what are you talking about?
Sure they run out, sure they are slow but.. there's proximity detonation which makes them quite easier to hit with.
Also rockets can be used quite effectively as primary weapon if you have reload (which does happen sometimes, BS for example and i expect cappies to become more not less involved eventually)
or as secondary weapons if not.
Or if capship is not available and you want to be more versatile then you don't take them. (everything has it's drawbacks)
And do you really want vo's primarey weapons to be missiles?
Where's the fun in that?
[edit]Oh wait, or are you not making that usual rocket/missile distinction?
Ok so if you mean rockets then.. what are you talking about?
Sure they run out, sure they are slow but.. there's proximity detonation which makes them quite easier to hit with.
Also rockets can be used quite effectively as primary weapon if you have reload (which does happen sometimes, BS for example and i expect cappies to become more not less involved eventually)
or as secondary weapons if not.
Or if capship is not available and you want to be more versatile then you don't take them. (everything has it's drawbacks)
They are just over valued
So... while everyone but you thinks rockets are great as they are, if not actually overpowered, they're suffering from some sort of collective false consciouness to which you have magically avoided falling prey?
You need to major in something with "post-modernism" in the title at your amusing little liberal arts college. You know, after you graduate from high school.
So... while everyone but you thinks rockets are great as they are, if not actually overpowered, they're suffering from some sort of collective false consciouness to which you have magically avoided falling prey?
You need to major in something with "post-modernism" in the title at your amusing little liberal arts college. You know, after you graduate from high school.
Missiles in vendetta don't have a proper place- They can be used to suppliment energy, but that's just about it. Any vessel that uses only rockets is going to run out of ammo unless they are an extremely good pilot.
Made me feel fuzzy inside.
Rockets, like energy, take skill to use. While some might argue that a rocket's proximity detonation makes it easier, I have to point out that there is limited ammo. Unlike energy, where you can effectively back up and spray continuously, you only get x amount of times with rockets (another funny note: backing up with rockets tends to make them stand still, not that useful for newbies).
If anything, it's not the weapons that are really doing this but the style of fighting promoted by the game mechanics. The circling and dancing, as opposed to "normal" strafing runs and one shotters. That's what makes certain weapons less effective, like missiles.
Made me feel fuzzy inside.
Rockets, like energy, take skill to use. While some might argue that a rocket's proximity detonation makes it easier, I have to point out that there is limited ammo. Unlike energy, where you can effectively back up and spray continuously, you only get x amount of times with rockets (another funny note: backing up with rockets tends to make them stand still, not that useful for newbies).
If anything, it's not the weapons that are really doing this but the style of fighting promoted by the game mechanics. The circling and dancing, as opposed to "normal" strafing runs and one shotters. That's what makes certain weapons less effective, like missiles.
I use many ships with many loadouts, and I rarely if ever fly without at least one energy weapon. One of my long time favorites is a corvus marauder with two suns and an energy weapon. The suns are not, as you say: "used to suppliment energy", but rather, the energy is used to supplement the suns. The suns are the primary weapon. The energy is there to force the opponent into a position of facing the flares.
I can get an all energy fighter, and kill an unlimited number of moths, newbs, and orun collectors. Doubling, tripling, or quadrupling the ammo of ammo based weapon will not change the fact that energy does not need ammo. That is one of the major advantages of energy weapons, and why a single energy weapon can provide such strong support for ammo based weapons.
While I can kill an unlimited number of moths, newbs, and orun collectors with just about any energy weapon, getting more than one kill against truly experienced and skilled pilots is a considerable feat, with any loadout. I have on occasion killed two or even three skilled pilots in a single run. What is it that you are hunting, that you even have to worry about getting 6 kills without reloading or repairing? Sure, if I had an unlimited amount of ammo, I could just spam flares until I saturated space to the point that even a light fighter could not move without running over something. You have already stated that you can carry enough ammo to make 6 kills, if you don't miss. And yet this does not suit you? Lets face it, the only reason you need more ammo, is to either hunt more newbs, or afford you to miss your target more.
I have seen all flare ships that can kill multiple skilled opponent, and they can be very difficult to defeat.
Learn to use flares correctly, or learn to use energy. Weapons are well balanced to give varied options to skilled pilots, and we should not rebalanced them to support your lack of skill.
I can get an all energy fighter, and kill an unlimited number of moths, newbs, and orun collectors. Doubling, tripling, or quadrupling the ammo of ammo based weapon will not change the fact that energy does not need ammo. That is one of the major advantages of energy weapons, and why a single energy weapon can provide such strong support for ammo based weapons.
While I can kill an unlimited number of moths, newbs, and orun collectors with just about any energy weapon, getting more than one kill against truly experienced and skilled pilots is a considerable feat, with any loadout. I have on occasion killed two or even three skilled pilots in a single run. What is it that you are hunting, that you even have to worry about getting 6 kills without reloading or repairing? Sure, if I had an unlimited amount of ammo, I could just spam flares until I saturated space to the point that even a light fighter could not move without running over something. You have already stated that you can carry enough ammo to make 6 kills, if you don't miss. And yet this does not suit you? Lets face it, the only reason you need more ammo, is to either hunt more newbs, or afford you to miss your target more.
I have seen all flare ships that can kill multiple skilled opponent, and they can be very difficult to defeat.
Learn to use flares correctly, or learn to use energy. Weapons are well balanced to give varied options to skilled pilots, and we should not rebalanced them to support your lack of skill.
I'm in agreement with Roda here. If I take a SCP or an X-1 into BP or BS with a dual or triple rocket load-out, I can (assuming I'm not rusty as hell and that I'm timing my flares right) make a serious mess of several enemy ships actively engaged in furballs with my guys, or I can engage multiple opponents either sequentially or at once, or some of each.
While there's always the chance I'll get killed, there's also an excellent chance that I'll score between three to five kills (more with the SCP) with that loadout, and then be able to sucessfully depart the sector and dock at a station.
Afterwards, yes, I have to Repair & Rearm. I fail to see how that's a bad plan given the difference in threat that a charging tri-flare poses as opposed to a charging tri-energy ship.
While there's always the chance I'll get killed, there's also an excellent chance that I'll score between three to five kills (more with the SCP) with that loadout, and then be able to sucessfully depart the sector and dock at a station.
Afterwards, yes, I have to Repair & Rearm. I fail to see how that's a bad plan given the difference in threat that a charging tri-flare poses as opposed to a charging tri-energy ship.
Aye very good point roda but
Firefly's and yellowjacket missiles need A: more ammo B: more damage, or the ability to detonate by proximity like the gems
http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/Weapons:Small#Missiles
Firefly's and yellowjacket missiles need A: more ammo B: more damage, or the ability to detonate by proximity like the gems
http://www.vo-wiki.com/wiki/Weapons:Small#Missiles
Spidey has a point.
Firefly and Yellowjacket class missiles are both too small-scale in their damage to be useful against capital ships, and too poor at tracking to hit anything without a proxy detonation.
To the Yellowjacket's credit, the munition does have a considerable amount of oomph for an ammo weapon of its size, but hitting anything that it might actually be able to harm is quite a feat.
People always favor Gemini missiles because they are almost ridiculously powerful compared to their counterparts. Not only do they do more damage and have a splash radius, they track better too. It stands to reason that they should be a little better, given that they have a higher license requirement, but they're such a league beyond their peers that the self-same contemporaries are seldom used at all.
Seems silly, really.
Firefly and Yellowjacket class missiles are both too small-scale in their damage to be useful against capital ships, and too poor at tracking to hit anything without a proxy detonation.
To the Yellowjacket's credit, the munition does have a considerable amount of oomph for an ammo weapon of its size, but hitting anything that it might actually be able to harm is quite a feat.
People always favor Gemini missiles because they are almost ridiculously powerful compared to their counterparts. Not only do they do more damage and have a splash radius, they track better too. It stands to reason that they should be a little better, given that they have a higher license requirement, but they're such a league beyond their peers that the self-same contemporaries are seldom used at all.
Seems silly, really.
I agree that Fireflies and yellow jackets are completely obsoleted by the gem, and that they enjoy little or no niche market.
The sunflare does more damage per tube than any other flare, and yet I often prefer the iceflare, because it does more damage per mass, and I want to keep my ship light.
The stingray is just about completely worthless in pvp, especially compared to the chaos, and yet, the stingray has found a niche in heavy bombing, because it is much lighter than the chaos, and does more damage per tube.
Gems do seem to nicely compliment chaos, and it would be nice if one of the other small port missiles would better complement the stingray.
The yellow jacket is not far off base, but the firefly is a total enigma to me. Perhaps if we increase the firefly's damage per tube to slightly more than the gem?
The sunflare does more damage per tube than any other flare, and yet I often prefer the iceflare, because it does more damage per mass, and I want to keep my ship light.
The stingray is just about completely worthless in pvp, especially compared to the chaos, and yet, the stingray has found a niche in heavy bombing, because it is much lighter than the chaos, and does more damage per tube.
Gems do seem to nicely compliment chaos, and it would be nice if one of the other small port missiles would better complement the stingray.
The yellow jacket is not far off base, but the firefly is a total enigma to me. Perhaps if we increase the firefly's damage per tube to slightly more than the gem?