Forums » Suggestions
I would like to see the grav's energy requirement reduces to 23 energy/shot (-2), and the velocity upped to 200 (+30m/s). It's ridiculous to make it 20 m/s slower than tachs.
Just remove the s-port homers - they're a joke. Make the L-port homers small and, possibly, drop the amount of ammo per slot. Up the damage per seeker - they hit so rarely they deserve more punch.
Increase the range of the gauss cannon, drop the energy requirement by 10-20. Why does the L-port verion of this weapon suck just as bad and only do a minimal amount of additional damage?
And I don't know what, but something needs to be done with the gattling cannon (not the turret), considering it's totally useless on any ship that can actually carry it (ie, L-port ships fly like molasses in the middle of winter), with the possible exception of the promy, where it's only mostly useless. Or give it 400 damage like its turreted brother.
Side note: why do I ALWAYS take splash damage from flares? I mean I know I suck, but rockets seem like they're twice as difficult to use as they used to be. What's different between the flares and the old lvl 2's?
Increase the range of the gauss cannon, drop the energy requirement by 10-20. Why does the L-port verion of this weapon suck just as bad and only do a minimal amount of additional damage?
And I don't know what, but something needs to be done with the gattling cannon (not the turret), considering it's totally useless on any ship that can actually carry it (ie, L-port ships fly like molasses in the middle of winter), with the possible exception of the promy, where it's only mostly useless. Or give it 400 damage like its turreted brother.
Side note: why do I ALWAYS take splash damage from flares? I mean I know I suck, but rockets seem like they're twice as difficult to use as they used to be. What's different between the flares and the old lvl 2's?
I normally don't like making balance posts. But!
I feel in some senses that your post wasn't strong enough--of all the small guns, tachyon guns see the most use, by far and away, with a few brave souls using gravitons for whatever reason. The guns are in need of some tweaking to make the other weapons more desireable; while I do have a whole screed in mind regarding the importance of some variables, I'm not going to get into it here.
The reason why is simple: The ships themselves aren't balanced yet. Once there's a core group of ships which are balanced off against each other, and equally desireable (factoring in costs, etc.) *then* we can talk about balancing weapons. There's no point in changing anything if the targets they're meant to hit change too, which would require a complicated set of revisions and meta-revisions!
However, you are right about the homers--but they've always been "useless" like this. They're more tactically useful--few pilots and ships are nimble enough to repeatedly dodge homers without turboing, which means most players are going to be forced to back off at least for a little while, to avoid getting hit. The homers are splendid against non-turbo-capable targets, too--dumping an entire clip of Gemini missiles at a flag carrier is generally an assured kill.
As for Sunflares, the in-game documentation states the blast radius for them is 60 meters, and they travel a net 55 m/s faster than the launcher. Fire them just over a second before contact for ideal results, or start braking after you've launched your payload, preferably still a full second before contact. (This is obviously easier with a light fighter, which I prefer using.)
I feel in some senses that your post wasn't strong enough--of all the small guns, tachyon guns see the most use, by far and away, with a few brave souls using gravitons for whatever reason. The guns are in need of some tweaking to make the other weapons more desireable; while I do have a whole screed in mind regarding the importance of some variables, I'm not going to get into it here.
The reason why is simple: The ships themselves aren't balanced yet. Once there's a core group of ships which are balanced off against each other, and equally desireable (factoring in costs, etc.) *then* we can talk about balancing weapons. There's no point in changing anything if the targets they're meant to hit change too, which would require a complicated set of revisions and meta-revisions!
However, you are right about the homers--but they've always been "useless" like this. They're more tactically useful--few pilots and ships are nimble enough to repeatedly dodge homers without turboing, which means most players are going to be forced to back off at least for a little while, to avoid getting hit. The homers are splendid against non-turbo-capable targets, too--dumping an entire clip of Gemini missiles at a flag carrier is generally an assured kill.
As for Sunflares, the in-game documentation states the blast radius for them is 60 meters, and they travel a net 55 m/s faster than the launcher. Fire them just over a second before contact for ideal results, or start braking after you've launched your payload, preferably still a full second before contact. (This is obviously easier with a light fighter, which I prefer using.)
euhm sorry to burst your bubble, but some of us are able to dodge homers while not using the boost button.
"at least if they were unaltered from the 3.1.x ones"
PS: I was one of them, had a little more troubles with heaters :D
I once dodged 5 sets withouth getting hit once :D,naturally I'm not the only ones was just to point out that it is possible to dodge them untill they dissapear. But you are free to a next attack, so if you then shoot rockets, it gets a little more dangerous :D
was mainly lucky :D
"at least if they were unaltered from the 3.1.x ones"
PS: I was one of them, had a little more troubles with heaters :D
I once dodged 5 sets withouth getting hit once :D,naturally I'm not the only ones was just to point out that it is possible to dodge them untill they dissapear. But you are free to a next attack, so if you then shoot rockets, it gets a little more dangerous :D
was mainly lucky :D
ERRrrrrr... I use Geminis on my Warthog and I don't have a problem with hitting my target. I don't know why so many people are complaining about it. Are they expecting to hit their target from 1000m away? You gotta be up close for them to be effective. They're fine as they are now. I just wish, however, that they would be equipped with more ammo.
From 3.1.x to 3.2.0, I was happy to see all the "level 1" and "level 2" tiers go away. Each weapon is now unique with their own characteristics. Unfortunately they're not quite balanced yet. The following S-port weapons are ones that I rarely ever see used:
Blasters - These guys are slow and weak. But when paired or tripled up they can pack a moderate punch at a minimal cost and energy loss. Still, few people ever use 'em since they can afford the bigger guns.
Gravitron - Some people use this. I don't know why though. They dish out the same damage as Tachyons, are slightly faster, have a higher rate of fire, but... their high energy consumption cripples them.
Gauss Cannon - I don't think I've ever seen anyone use these for quite a while. They're very slow, travel at a very short distance, and suck up insane amounts of energy.
Charge Cannon - I know maybe one or two people who use these. They're alright, I guess, but I feel that they fire a little too slow. Maybe if they were to fire a little faster more people would use 'em.
Railgun - This is a type of weapon that I feel needs to be tweaked verrrrry carefully. You face the problem of making it a one-shot-one-kill weapon, but at the same time you don't want it to drain too much energy or make it too weak. Unfortunately I feel that I'd rather not see a watered down railgun, since its power and speed is what characterizes the railgun to begin with. At the same time I'd rather not see n00bs get killed in one or two shots. VERY sensitive tweaking needs to be done... or the weapon can be renamed completely and be something that's totally original. Mercury Bow, anyone? Okay... so I stole that from Oni.
I'm not quite sure about the L-port weapons yet. I haven't really played around with a lot of 'em. But I have noticed very few people ever using the plasma cannons. Guess I'll have to experiment with 'em later.
EDIT: Added Charge Cannons.
From 3.1.x to 3.2.0, I was happy to see all the "level 1" and "level 2" tiers go away. Each weapon is now unique with their own characteristics. Unfortunately they're not quite balanced yet. The following S-port weapons are ones that I rarely ever see used:
Blasters - These guys are slow and weak. But when paired or tripled up they can pack a moderate punch at a minimal cost and energy loss. Still, few people ever use 'em since they can afford the bigger guns.
Gravitron - Some people use this. I don't know why though. They dish out the same damage as Tachyons, are slightly faster, have a higher rate of fire, but... their high energy consumption cripples them.
Gauss Cannon - I don't think I've ever seen anyone use these for quite a while. They're very slow, travel at a very short distance, and suck up insane amounts of energy.
Charge Cannon - I know maybe one or two people who use these. They're alright, I guess, but I feel that they fire a little too slow. Maybe if they were to fire a little faster more people would use 'em.
Railgun - This is a type of weapon that I feel needs to be tweaked verrrrry carefully. You face the problem of making it a one-shot-one-kill weapon, but at the same time you don't want it to drain too much energy or make it too weak. Unfortunately I feel that I'd rather not see a watered down railgun, since its power and speed is what characterizes the railgun to begin with. At the same time I'd rather not see n00bs get killed in one or two shots. VERY sensitive tweaking needs to be done... or the weapon can be renamed completely and be something that's totally original. Mercury Bow, anyone? Okay... so I stole that from Oni.
I'm not quite sure about the L-port weapons yet. I haven't really played around with a lot of 'em. But I have noticed very few people ever using the plasma cannons. Guess I'll have to experiment with 'em later.
EDIT: Added Charge Cannons.
Do your best arolte, and let us know what you find out ;)
cheers
PS: this makes me prepare for my arising in the game ;)
cheers
PS: this makes me prepare for my arising in the game ;)
Dont mock my chargers :P
you just cant move your fingers fast enough >:)
you just cant move your fingers fast enough >:)
I agree absolutely with Aceirocololt. (Man, that's a mouthful.)
There has been no effort to even remotely balance the fighters and make all of them interesting and useful, and as such talking about balancing the weapons is almost pointless.
But I'll refrain from starting another ship balancing thread.
I agree with Arolte's comments regarding the weapons, and actually want to make those points more forcefully. The dev's are wasting their time and the time of the content providers by stating weapons out so uselessly and erratically. I know that they are busy getting ready for E3 and that by comparison nothing else much matters, but I'd really like to see some emphasis on balance at some point in the development cycle if anything we are seeing now represents something close to the devs final desires. I mean if weapons are going to be completely reinvented anyway, why make a bunch of new ones to an old standard. And if they are not, why make so many useless ones?
1) Ion Blasters: This could be an interesting weapon even for experienced players, but the decision seems to be just make it a n00b's first gun and then never have it bought again.
My suggested changes:
Damage: 275 (+25) Energy Cost/Shot: 4 (-2) Velocity: 150 (+10)
Very minor tweaks upward that would make triples and quads of these a reasonably effective weapon. It doesn't have alot of punch but it would be by far the most energy effecient weapon in the game.
2) Phased Blaster: I don't think anyone uses this weapon. I'm not sure anyone ever has.
My change is simple and very straight forward:
Energy/Shot: 8 (-4)
3) Tachyon Blaster: About the best energy weapon in the game. Only the Adv. Gatling has a chance of competing for that title.
For now, no proposed changes, though a drop of a point or two from its energy cost might be welcome. See also comments regarding Graviton Blaster.
4) Graviton Blaster: I've been complaining about the inanity of this weapon since day one. It only has one use - mounted on a Centurian (a ship with basically one use). In theory, this weapon could be strong because of its very high theoretical damage per second. Good luck firing it for a whole second.
The weapon has two serious problems. First, it is only half as efficient as a Tachyon. Second, it is a whole 30 m/s slower than a Tachyon, and as such is much less accurate.
I don't know exactly how to fix this weapon without making it too good. I really don't know why you are paying more energy that a tachyon for a shot that moves slower and doesn't do any more damage. Maybe make this thing slightly cheaper per shot than a Tachyon and instead of decreasing the Tachyon's energy per shot, up its damage slightly. That would achieve the sort of 'laser's punch' vs. 'ion's rapid rate of fire' that we had in 3.1
5) Gauss Cannon: What a joke. Velocity of a 3.1 red laser. Doesn't do much more damage than a 3.1 blue laser, but cycles at less than half the rate and uses twice the energy. Terribly weak even compared to other 3.2 weapons. Noone uses them much past thier second or third day playing.
One suggestion for fixing them is:
Damage/Shot: 1300 (+300) Energy/Shot: 30 (-20) Velocity: 150 (+10)
6) Plasma Cannon: The biggest joke of a weapon in the game. A large slot weapon that is actually inferior to a its small slot cousin (the gauss cannon), and its small slot cousin is possibly the worst small energy weapon! The speed of this weapon is RIDICULOUS. I have no idea why you are paying so much energy over a gauss cannon for such a slow weapon. If damage goes up and velocity goes down, the energy costs should stay about the same. If size of the weapon goes up, the energy cost per point of damage should go down or the velocity should go up or both.
Major fixes are required:
Damage/Shot: 1600 (+350) Energy/Shot: 50 (-20) Velocity: 165 (+45!)
7) Charge Cannon: I don't feel this weapon is quite as bad as Arolte does, but I agree that its abit suboptimal. However, I'm going to suggest changes both up and down with it which is probably going to be contriversial (for one thing it disagrees with my own balancing philosophy) and for another I'm going to suggest taking away the weapons versitility in exchange for more punch.
My somewhat complex fix:
Damage/Shot: 30 + 30/point of energy spent (maximum 3600) Energy/Shot: 1-119 Charging Rate: 60 energy/second Holding Cost of Charged Weapons: 30/second
The new weapons minimum is only 60 damage (but for practically no energy cost), but its maximum is an impressive 3600(!). Of course, its firing rate is only every 2 seconds and if you are charging more than one or two of them, you are going to be pretty much unpowered. The relatively low velocity of the weapon and the difficulties of using it with turbo will probably keep it balanced. It ideally should do splash damage (30m or so) when fully charged to limit its usefulness as a ram.
8) Railgun: Still not close to balanced in its _3rd_ incarnation, and its not like we've been getting closer. :p
My suggestions:
Damage: 1900 (+800) Energy/Shot: 45 (-65) Ammo Capacity: 20 (-10)
I'm not really sure lowering the ammo capacity of this weapon is needed, but just because so many people have gotten gun shy regarding this weapon try it out like this and see how it works.
9) Jackhammers & Screamers: If the velocity is indeed broken, fix the velocity bug so they actually go the speed they are supposed to. Will probably be very powerful and very popular at that point.
UPDATE: Bug has been found and will be fixed. Yay, devs!
10) Gatling Cannon: The advanced gatling's younger brother has always been a little weak for a large weapon. Either reduce its cost to make it the 'ion blaster' of the large weapon world, or decrease its energy/shot (or both).
11) Yellow Jacket Missiles: Maybe the weakest weapon in the game, but I very much dislike homing weapons so it doesn't bother me that much. Besides which I plan to use them against capital ships. I recommend you don't change for now but maybe consider +5 m/s or +300 damage later.
12) Stingray Missiles: Potentially useful but there are so many better uses of the large slot. Might be an excellent anti-capital ship weapon so don't change for now, but maybe consider +5 m/s and +2 ammo capacity later.
Currently Balanced: Swarm Launcher, Advanced Gatling, Gemini Missiles, (probably) Sunflares, (possibly) Tachyon Blaster.
There. Maybe people will stop complaining that I only want to see weapons nerfed.
There has been no effort to even remotely balance the fighters and make all of them interesting and useful, and as such talking about balancing the weapons is almost pointless.
But I'll refrain from starting another ship balancing thread.
I agree with Arolte's comments regarding the weapons, and actually want to make those points more forcefully. The dev's are wasting their time and the time of the content providers by stating weapons out so uselessly and erratically. I know that they are busy getting ready for E3 and that by comparison nothing else much matters, but I'd really like to see some emphasis on balance at some point in the development cycle if anything we are seeing now represents something close to the devs final desires. I mean if weapons are going to be completely reinvented anyway, why make a bunch of new ones to an old standard. And if they are not, why make so many useless ones?
1) Ion Blasters: This could be an interesting weapon even for experienced players, but the decision seems to be just make it a n00b's first gun and then never have it bought again.
My suggested changes:
Damage: 275 (+25) Energy Cost/Shot: 4 (-2) Velocity: 150 (+10)
Very minor tweaks upward that would make triples and quads of these a reasonably effective weapon. It doesn't have alot of punch but it would be by far the most energy effecient weapon in the game.
2) Phased Blaster: I don't think anyone uses this weapon. I'm not sure anyone ever has.
My change is simple and very straight forward:
Energy/Shot: 8 (-4)
3) Tachyon Blaster: About the best energy weapon in the game. Only the Adv. Gatling has a chance of competing for that title.
For now, no proposed changes, though a drop of a point or two from its energy cost might be welcome. See also comments regarding Graviton Blaster.
4) Graviton Blaster: I've been complaining about the inanity of this weapon since day one. It only has one use - mounted on a Centurian (a ship with basically one use). In theory, this weapon could be strong because of its very high theoretical damage per second. Good luck firing it for a whole second.
The weapon has two serious problems. First, it is only half as efficient as a Tachyon. Second, it is a whole 30 m/s slower than a Tachyon, and as such is much less accurate.
I don't know exactly how to fix this weapon without making it too good. I really don't know why you are paying more energy that a tachyon for a shot that moves slower and doesn't do any more damage. Maybe make this thing slightly cheaper per shot than a Tachyon and instead of decreasing the Tachyon's energy per shot, up its damage slightly. That would achieve the sort of 'laser's punch' vs. 'ion's rapid rate of fire' that we had in 3.1
5) Gauss Cannon: What a joke. Velocity of a 3.1 red laser. Doesn't do much more damage than a 3.1 blue laser, but cycles at less than half the rate and uses twice the energy. Terribly weak even compared to other 3.2 weapons. Noone uses them much past thier second or third day playing.
One suggestion for fixing them is:
Damage/Shot: 1300 (+300) Energy/Shot: 30 (-20) Velocity: 150 (+10)
6) Plasma Cannon: The biggest joke of a weapon in the game. A large slot weapon that is actually inferior to a its small slot cousin (the gauss cannon), and its small slot cousin is possibly the worst small energy weapon! The speed of this weapon is RIDICULOUS. I have no idea why you are paying so much energy over a gauss cannon for such a slow weapon. If damage goes up and velocity goes down, the energy costs should stay about the same. If size of the weapon goes up, the energy cost per point of damage should go down or the velocity should go up or both.
Major fixes are required:
Damage/Shot: 1600 (+350) Energy/Shot: 50 (-20) Velocity: 165 (+45!)
7) Charge Cannon: I don't feel this weapon is quite as bad as Arolte does, but I agree that its abit suboptimal. However, I'm going to suggest changes both up and down with it which is probably going to be contriversial (for one thing it disagrees with my own balancing philosophy) and for another I'm going to suggest taking away the weapons versitility in exchange for more punch.
My somewhat complex fix:
Damage/Shot: 30 + 30/point of energy spent (maximum 3600) Energy/Shot: 1-119 Charging Rate: 60 energy/second Holding Cost of Charged Weapons: 30/second
The new weapons minimum is only 60 damage (but for practically no energy cost), but its maximum is an impressive 3600(!). Of course, its firing rate is only every 2 seconds and if you are charging more than one or two of them, you are going to be pretty much unpowered. The relatively low velocity of the weapon and the difficulties of using it with turbo will probably keep it balanced. It ideally should do splash damage (30m or so) when fully charged to limit its usefulness as a ram.
8) Railgun: Still not close to balanced in its _3rd_ incarnation, and its not like we've been getting closer. :p
My suggestions:
Damage: 1900 (+800) Energy/Shot: 45 (-65) Ammo Capacity: 20 (-10)
I'm not really sure lowering the ammo capacity of this weapon is needed, but just because so many people have gotten gun shy regarding this weapon try it out like this and see how it works.
9) Jackhammers & Screamers: If the velocity is indeed broken, fix the velocity bug so they actually go the speed they are supposed to. Will probably be very powerful and very popular at that point.
UPDATE: Bug has been found and will be fixed. Yay, devs!
10) Gatling Cannon: The advanced gatling's younger brother has always been a little weak for a large weapon. Either reduce its cost to make it the 'ion blaster' of the large weapon world, or decrease its energy/shot (or both).
11) Yellow Jacket Missiles: Maybe the weakest weapon in the game, but I very much dislike homing weapons so it doesn't bother me that much. Besides which I plan to use them against capital ships. I recommend you don't change for now but maybe consider +5 m/s or +300 damage later.
12) Stingray Missiles: Potentially useful but there are so many better uses of the large slot. Might be an excellent anti-capital ship weapon so don't change for now, but maybe consider +5 m/s and +2 ammo capacity later.
Currently Balanced: Swarm Launcher, Advanced Gatling, Gemini Missiles, (probably) Sunflares, (possibly) Tachyon Blaster.
There. Maybe people will stop complaining that I only want to see weapons nerfed.
Actually, the charged cannon would benefit from a better charging system, IMO. For example, tap once to start charging, go back to what you were doing. Once it's done, tap again to release.
Charged cannon has a dealay befor it is released, which sucks!
Yeah one of the problems I've had with the L-port missiles/homers/rockets is their reliability. I'm sorry, but I'd much rather pay for an advanced gatling turret than any of the provided L-port rockets or missiles. They're simply too unreliable and wasteful. The swarms are alright, but a lot of the L-port missile weapons need to be looked into in terms of lethality and reliability.
I'd also like to note that before we go into criticizing the devs' decision to include all these "useless" weapons for 3.2, please consider what impact it may have on future releases. Let's not try to discourage them from providing us with a large variety of "untested" weapons. Yes, they didn't have all the time in the world to test the balance of each one, but they gave us a fresh variety of weapons to choose from. In fact, it's a lot more than I had originally imagined. Even it if it's something useless, it can be fun to use and maybe it could spark some inspiration towards better weapons for the future.
Point is, I'd much rather have a large variety of weapons than only a few ones that have been thoroughly tested. I bet when the final version is released and we all get used to the final arsenal of weapons, we'll be saying things like, "Hey, you remember the time there was that bigass, slow cannon that was totally useless but looked cool back in the beta days?!" It's just an added bonus for being a beta tester.
I'd also like to note that before we go into criticizing the devs' decision to include all these "useless" weapons for 3.2, please consider what impact it may have on future releases. Let's not try to discourage them from providing us with a large variety of "untested" weapons. Yes, they didn't have all the time in the world to test the balance of each one, but they gave us a fresh variety of weapons to choose from. In fact, it's a lot more than I had originally imagined. Even it if it's something useless, it can be fun to use and maybe it could spark some inspiration towards better weapons for the future.
Point is, I'd much rather have a large variety of weapons than only a few ones that have been thoroughly tested. I bet when the final version is released and we all get used to the final arsenal of weapons, we'll be saying things like, "Hey, you remember the time there was that bigass, slow cannon that was totally useless but looked cool back in the beta days?!" It's just an added bonus for being a beta tester.
Railgun:
"Damage: 1900 (+800) Energy/Shot: 45 (-65) Ammo Capacity: 20 (-10)"
Ahhh, I think the energy/shot should be about 75 for that damage...
"Damage: 1900 (+800) Energy/Shot: 45 (-65) Ammo Capacity: 20 (-10)"
Ahhh, I think the energy/shot should be about 75 for that damage...
"Ahhh, I think the energy/shot should be about 75 for that damage..."
Well, clearly I don't fully agree, but I'd settle for trying that. It would it at least be a step in the right direction, and who knows, maybe your right.
Well, clearly I don't fully agree, but I'd settle for trying that. It would it at least be a step in the right direction, and who knows, maybe your right.
Yeah, but it would also be really fast. Basically a faster version of the gauss cannon or whatever it is, but it uses ammo. It'd also be more powerful...
Actually, I agree with Blaster. If it only took 45 energy per shot, quad railguns would only require 180 energy, while doing 7600 damage... 75 energy per shot, on the other hand, would require 300 energy for quad railguns, making it much less useful. You could still use quad railguns, but you would only be able to get one, maybe two shots off, and would be a sitting duck the rest of the time.
"...making it much less useful...and would be a sitting duck the rest of the time."
Well, that's kinda my point.
Well, that's kinda my point.
Geminis do the most damage of all the small launched weapons. They also have a small blast radius which is good for fighters that are going to get close to their target.
Gravs shoot twice as fast as tachs. Two tachs are better than a grav, but that obviously takes up 1 more slot. I think that is balanced, even though the tachs are slightly better.
Gravs shoot twice as fast as tachs. Two tachs are better than a grav, but that obviously takes up 1 more slot. I think that is balanced, even though the tachs are slightly better.
Sircamps, it fires unstable graviton bursts, i wouldn't think something unstable would go very fast.
Besides, tachyons are meant to be slightly slower in reload but slightly faster in actual speed.
Besides, tachyons are meant to be slightly slower in reload but slightly faster in actual speed.
SirCamps: Fine, but if you did that then you'd just move the problem from everyone using the Tachyon, to everyone using the Graviton. The net accomplishment would be zero.
(SL: I personally could care less about the technobabble. We don't even know for sure if gravitons exists, much less what their momentum or velocity might be.)
(SL: I personally could care less about the technobabble. We don't even know for sure if gravitons exists, much less what their momentum or velocity might be.)
If the weapon variables are all stored via a cfg or whatnot serverside - not hard-coded, then couldnt the devs have a lot of leeway with weapons testing?
Imagine logging on and reading the patch MOTD and it says something like "Gravitons given higher velocity for the next few days. Post thoughts on the board."
Imagine logging on and reading the patch MOTD and it says something like "Gravitons given higher velocity for the next few days. Post thoughts on the board."