Discussion from this thread (http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/12239?page=3) leads to what I'm posting here.

The Prom fits the Serco Identity very well. Think of the description of Karun's style of fighting within the backstory. He's basically a big, heavy slugger.

The Valk doesn't seem to fit the itani identity that well though. It doesn't seem to have Oernun's grace.

The Maud sucks at being UIT as far as identity goes.

As far as suggestions go.
The Prom doesn't need that much changing, but due to the massive complaining, I'd claim that we should make it more of a heavy slugger through upping the armor a bit and upping the mass so that it can't dance around as much.

The Valk must be made more agile. Leave the spin torque the same, but increase the thrust or decrease the mass. The fact that it's the best chaser right now means nothing in combat unless you want to run away.

For the maud, well... there are other threads on it.
In the ideal world the maud would have "infinite" cargo capacity, but for every 15cu another cargo canister would be added to the string of canisters at the back of the ship. This would totally ruin the handling in any other direction then straight ahead because of the very off-centre thrust. Strafing sideways would push the "head" to the side, but not the string of canisters. It can't turn around on the spot but would have a rather large turning circle...
-The Noid from this thread: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/12162?page=3

FM, delete this if you find it to be repetitive or useless... I think we need a better search feature or something...

Ok... then we could just make it heavier instead. Making it heavier would probably alleviate the problems people have with it...

like i said in the original thread, the only one of the three that needs changiong is the maud (needs a weapon port reconfiguration)

So you would say the valk should stay how it is?

The main problem I see with the Valks is how they compare with the IBG and Rev. C Cents. Even with the slight nerfing the Cents had a while back, I'd still say they outclass the Valks. But I actually consider this to be more a problem with the Cents than with the Valk. I do think the Valk should have a bit more thrust, maybe 10 or 20 kN, but mainly I think the Cents need some more nerfing.

What I'd suggest is cutting the Cents thrust & mass significantly. The Cent is a much smaller ship than the Valk, yet it masses very close to the same. I'd say drop the mass of the IBG Cent to 2000kg & the Rev. C to 2100kg, and the thrust on both to 145kN. That would keep their empty acceleration very nearly the same it is now, but weapon & cargo mass would hurt its acceleration more than it does currently. The IBG & Rev. C could still be very, very nimble, like they are now, but only if they use the less massive weapons. The standard Cents should also have similar mass & thrust cuts.

[edit]
Also, the IBG & Rev. C Cents should have higher license requirements. 1/2/-/-/- when they're among the best ships in the game... that's just not right. At least put them at 3/4/-/-/-.
[/edit]

I would agree with that analysis Beo. It seems to me as if the cents would fit the itani combat identity better... they're more like Oernun than the Valk is.

I think the valk fits the role fine; remember, the Itani are supposed to be an aspiring pacifist society, so it makes sense that running and courrier abilities would take precidence over combat ability. If you want the combat ability, use the IBG - plenty of grace there. I don't see the cent being more potent in combat than the valk a PROBLEM, though it might make sense to have the combat level requirements for the IBG a bit higher... The Valk still has its place, but as a fast and agile courrier and fast-pass bomber, not an assault fighter. While making it ever so slightly lighter would benefit the valk, I don't think it needs any other tweaking.

Only the maud needs revising. The modularibility is definately the way it should be done to fit the UIT. Cargo expansion pods should be availabnle which integrate additonal engines into their design, giving you some additional thrust to handle the added weight (but not so much thrust that you won't feel them when they start filling up) I don't think that the 'infinate' cargo capacity is viable though... maybe allow for a max of eight additonal containers at 60u cargo apiece (structural integrity of the chain would be compromised with more than that) and perhaps also allow the addition of 'weapon pod' containers in place of cargo ones, which add one L-port per container at the expense of some maneuvering power (so you could potentially have a 3-S, 8-L maud, but it wouldn't be able to turn or move worth CRAP. This WOULD however, be useful in mining operations, if you wanted maybe 4 L-port mining beams and 4 cargo containers, you could have that, but it would be suicide to take it into hostile territory alone.

If that was done with the maud, it would reflect the UIT's nomadic survivability perfectly.

I dont think the mass can be cut on the cents anymore than it allready is.. something to do with the calculations the game engine uses would make them go crazy or something.

I'm still of the opinion that the cent is a rocket, a gun, and a pilots compartment.. wack the armor so that its super veunerable, but leave everything else alone.

Huh, I'd not heard that there was a minimum ship mass that the game engine worked well with... if it is possible, I do think cutting the IBG & Rev. C's mass & thrust while keeping the same ratio would be the best solution, but if that's not possible... well, I guess I'd have to say IMO the second best option is cutting the thrust a bit more, down to around 200kN. [edit] And/or cut the non-turbo top speed down to 60m/s [/edit]

I don't think I like the idea of cutting its armor very much. I'd be OK with cutting it a bit, down to between 6000 & 6500, but I don't think that'd really solve the problem. The problem I have with the Cents isn't their armor - it really doesn't take all that many hits to make them boom - but rather their high speed & acceleration & small size. Already if you can get a few hits, you'll destroy the Cent, it's just freaking hard to get those hits. The way I see it, when fighting a Cent the Cent pilot is either good enough to dodge anything you shoot at them, in which case it's next to impossible to beat the Cent, or else the Cent pilot isn't good enough to dodge, in which case there's not much challenge to popping them. There's really no nice middle ground right now: either it's too easy to pop the Cent, or it's too hard, and I don't think cutting the armor very much wouldn't change that.

My idea of ideal maud:

Armor: 7000
Mass: 2500
Thrust: 190
Ports: 2S 2L
Turbo Speed: 230
Drain: 55/s
Cargo: 60 cu

This way, it can manuever (unarmed) like a (unarmed) Rev C, but weapon weight would have a greater impact. The large number of weapons ports makes it a very versatile ship, which I feel suits the UIT.

with 2S and 2L i'd have to say the maud you perposed needs a but if a thrust increase and a slightly lesser mass increase:
say:
Mass: 2700
Thrust: 200

The Maud can't have its mass and thrust dropped that low, if you have any intention of it ever carrying cargo. At 2700kg mass & 200kN thrust, it would have an acceleration of 74.074m/s², which is a very good acceleration - but that's only when it's empty and unarmed. Load it with 60 100kg cargo widgets, and you'll have more than tripled its mass, but it has the same thrust. Now its acceleration is only 22.989 m/s² - NOT a good acceleration. More and/or heavier cargo, and it'd barely be able to move at all. And you took away infiniturbo. That Maud is going to be pirate bait.

With those stats, the Maud would be even less useful than it is now.

"either it's too easy to pop the Cent, or it's too hard, and I don't think cutting the armor very much wouldn't change that."

I like a challenge... and I like free centjock PKs even more =D

I don't mind fightig cents, as long as they ARE popable... same goes for proms (that double-KO between my rag and Gavan's prom last night was pretty awesome)

There are few players good enough to annoy me with a prom, being insanely good with them and impossible to hit, and even fewer players which can annoy me with a revC/IBG, since only a couple well-placed hits will do them in.

I say we stop talking about how to nerf the cents and see what happens after the devs slow everything down.

what the fuck is 'racial identity', did i walk into the national front message board?

what the hell is wrong with science fiction people that they continually feel the need to ascribe behavioral characteristics to individuals based on their race?

there are 3 nations, but there is only one race, the human race. ok, if you count the rat race, thats two races.

the backstory only mentions race three times. 1 it mentions the 'human race'. 2 some itani become elitist and decide the serco have become a separate 'race' because they stick electronics in their body. (which makes about as much sense as hitler saying 'aryan germans' are a different race than the rest of the germans) 3. the 'neutrals' are considered possibly a different species by serco.

hello people. this aint lord of the rings. theres no orcs, thank god (orcs are perhaps the most racist invention in english literature). theres no elves goblins etc etc etc. theres just people.

/me gives ananzi some of the attention he wants

*tosses some attention into the pot*

Race is the wrong word to use here. The correct one would be "culture".

Serco are raised in a culture that values a fighting style of hard-hitting smashing blows over pecking someone to death. Hell, if the VO engine supported grappling, I'm sure we'd prefer to grab a cent and toss it into an asteroid to all this shooting crap. Swarms, flechettes, flares of all types and, interestingly enough, the relatively primitive energy-based plasma cannon are Serco designs.

The Itani are a pacifist society, maintaining combat as an artful excercise in concentration rather than actual destruction. Itani ships wouldn't necessarily be combat-oriented at all. They're very good at running about but are lightly armed, encouraging a style of quick, piercing blows while staying largely out of range of the Serco's superior muscles/missiles. Most energy weapons, along with Screamer rockets have their origins in Itani technology.

The UIT embrace a utilitarian style of combat - whatever gets it over with and lets them get back to making money the quickest. If they can warn someone off, all the better. The railgun is their invention, as are most of the mines (Lmines being a Corvus-designed exception).

I used "race" primarily because it was a term I thought people would be able to understand easily. (as well as the fact that "racial identity" was a phrase that was tossed around alot in the balance discussions of another game I used to play).

Did the Serco make the Plasmadevs? because those really seem to suit your description of Serco fighting still ctish.

actualy the Serco, Itani and UIT have been seperated long enought to be different races. ie noticable genetic differences would likely have developed refering to the 3 nations as races isn't nesesarily out of line. however the reason we do it is more acurately an artafact of MMORPGs in general, an their development from tabletop ROGs that use diferent races.

now back on topic. perhaps the valk shoudl only have it's speed reduced by 2% when everythign ese gets a 5% reduction if everyone thinks it needs to be faster to fufill the Itani racial identity.

Beolach is right that the maud needs a decent mass in order to carry cargo. that was my point in my previous post but i made the numbers op based soly on fooz2916's post

Isn't "what is race" really a philisophical question?

What is a "race?" Where do you draw distinctions? Is that person walking down the street a Serco? Is he an Itani? How can you tell? What if a Serco married and had kids with an Itani? Would he/she be Serco or Itani? If that mixed Serco/Itani married and had kids with a mixed UIT/Serco, then what would they be? Now if you talked to this individual who's half mixed Serco/Itani on one parent's side, and half mixed UIT/Serco on the other parent's side, and asked him what race he most closely identified with, what would he answer? Would he say "I'm Serco?" "I'm Itani?" "I'm UIT?" "I'm a mutt?"

As strange as this sounds, this is a question that many people who are "mixed race" have to ask themselves. Even people who are so-called pure from one race or another, but born in a different culture have to address this. Do they belong to the culture of their parents or grandparents, or do they belong to the culture that they were raised in?

Historically, race has been used as a label by which we can classify and oppress people. The "caucasians" decided to label dark skinned people from Africa "negroids," which became "negros," and you don't need me to tell you what that became, right?

This is why in the Vendetta universe there are three nations with distinct cultural identities, as ctishman said. While again, this could get very philisophical, it doesn't get quite as touchy as if you were to mention race.

wate i'm conused, are you saying that you are offended by the use of the word "race" in this context?

anyway my deffintion of race has it being more or less synonamus with the term sub-species. ie two organisams that are representative of larger groups and capable of reproducing in a maner of creating fertile ofspring but with noticable or signifigant biologicle differences beyond those explained by gender are said to be of different races.

so by that definition Itani, serco and UIt would likely be different races (and may themselves be divided into additional sub races).

anyone who was a mix of 2 races would either be a member of one of his/her parent's races or be racless (ie having a combination of the signifigant trates of each race and not fitting into one or the other entierly)

additionaly diversity does not inately mean superiority or inferiority

and finaly like i said earlier "race" in this context means "distinct social group" as a result of legacy issues that can be traced back to good old Dongeons and Dragons.