Forums » Suggestions
I think the new player conduct rules are a welcome addition to VO. However, I do think that some of the wording needs to be thought through a little more. Some of the rules appear to prohibit game behavior that I don't think Guild really wants to prohibit.
My specific comments are:
1. The rules should distinguish between a player and a character. Characters should be able to threaten each other within limits. For example, a pirate should be able to threaten to blow up a trader if she doesn't drop her cargo. A character or group of characters should be able to declare and conduct a vendetta against another character or group. The terms "harass" and "threaten" should also be defined to allow such conduct.
1.0.8. Real life conduct should be distinguised from RP conduct. For example, the Itani and Serco races appear to be intended to hate each other. They should be permitted to attack each others in-game ethnicity, race, philosophy, or religion.
1.1.2 Again, this should be narrowed to avoid prohibiting acceptable in-game conduct. Literally, this rule would prohibit many in-game activities, such as catch the cargo, border patrol, etc.
1.1.3 I'm not sure what this is intended to prevent. Would an organized wormhole blockade be prohibited? What is considered excessive or inappropriate channels of communication should be defined.
1.1.4 There has been a long thread on the use of alts for espionage. It is not clear if or how this rule would apply. Defrauding a player ( to get account info, etc.) should always be prohibited. But should defrauding by one character against anohter always be prohibited?
1.1.8 Implying favoritism by guides. There should be a means of reporting alleged favoritism by guides. The rule as worded would prohibit reporting of incidents to Guild.
My specific comments are:
1. The rules should distinguish between a player and a character. Characters should be able to threaten each other within limits. For example, a pirate should be able to threaten to blow up a trader if she doesn't drop her cargo. A character or group of characters should be able to declare and conduct a vendetta against another character or group. The terms "harass" and "threaten" should also be defined to allow such conduct.
1.0.8. Real life conduct should be distinguised from RP conduct. For example, the Itani and Serco races appear to be intended to hate each other. They should be permitted to attack each others in-game ethnicity, race, philosophy, or religion.
1.1.2 Again, this should be narrowed to avoid prohibiting acceptable in-game conduct. Literally, this rule would prohibit many in-game activities, such as catch the cargo, border patrol, etc.
1.1.3 I'm not sure what this is intended to prevent. Would an organized wormhole blockade be prohibited? What is considered excessive or inappropriate channels of communication should be defined.
1.1.4 There has been a long thread on the use of alts for espionage. It is not clear if or how this rule would apply. Defrauding a player ( to get account info, etc.) should always be prohibited. But should defrauding by one character against anohter always be prohibited?
1.1.8 Implying favoritism by guides. There should be a means of reporting alleged favoritism by guides. The rule as worded would prohibit reporting of incidents to Guild.
1.0 - All good, but yes, 1.0.8 should distinguish between activities that are roleplay within the game's limits and those that are not--with the assumption that at the game's point in time someone's sexuality and preferences are not a cared-about topic. Example:
- 1.0.8 - You may not organize nor be a member of any guilds or groups within Vendetta Online that are based on, or espouse, any racist, sexist, anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate-mongering philosophy. Guilds or groups that maintain beliefs that can be solidly supported by the game's background and by Guild Software's confirmation as existing within the game's context may be allowed.
1.1 - Good, especially 1.1.10. Guild officers must be in control over their underlings' actions for the guild to be respected.
1.2 - Also very good.
- 1.0.8 - You may not organize nor be a member of any guilds or groups within Vendetta Online that are based on, or espouse, any racist, sexist, anti-religious, anti-ethnic, anti-gay, or other hate-mongering philosophy. Guilds or groups that maintain beliefs that can be solidly supported by the game's background and by Guild Software's confirmation as existing within the game's context may be allowed.
1.1 - Good, especially 1.1.10. Guild officers must be in control over their underlings' actions for the guild to be respected.
1.2 - Also very good.
Um. Did I miss something? We have player conduct rules now?
[edit]
Cache-clearing refresh shows the new sidebar entries, but that's... odd? Thoughts:
7. You will follow the instructions of authorized personnel while in Vendetta Online or on the Official Forums.
Or? What? Lose our accounts if we refuse to do something a1k0n's new outsourced tech support slave tells us to do?
"11. You will not attempt to interfere with, hack into, or decipher any transmissions to or from the servers running Vendetta Online. "
It's a little late for that one...
13. You will not attempt to play Vendetta Online on any server that is not controlled or authorized by Guild Software Inc, or its designees.
Pre-emptive strike, or did something happen?
1. Foul language is not permitted, in any language.
Excessive use of foul language in an inappropriate context, including swear words, real-world racial slurs, and other language that is not consistent with the science fiction environment and designed to hurt, will be considered a disruption. The existence of the filter (game options) is not a license to be profane.
It looks to me as though this language permits RP slander/slurs/etc. By differentiating with real-world racial slurs, that means I can still call Sercos Secros. I think.
4. ... Examples of this activity include, but are not limited to, using deception to deprive another player of items,
That's a little wide-ranging. I understand preventing people from saying "I'm a dev, give me that widget." But rp conning isn't allowed? Why not?
Implying Favoritism by Guides - Stating that employees of Guild Software or members of the Guide program will show favor towards one or more parties involved in any given situation. This includes, but is not limited to, using threats of retribution or inferring that you will not be held accountable for your actions due to special consideration.
Umm. I think the guides are great and all. But, I mean, they're only human. Not only that, but all us ex-pre-alpha players know each other... I'm not so sure that favoritism doesn't exist. I've certainly gone on a few "rides" in the past.
Use the official forums as a staging-ground for creating general unrest within the game (e.g. Sit-ins).
We can't have in-game sit-ins? That's just MEAN!
Advertise web-sites with content that violates these rules, the Vendetta Online EULA, or Terms of Service.
So if I link to a site of, say, a pirate group that blockades sectors, my post is in violation of the rules?
[edit]
Cache-clearing refresh shows the new sidebar entries, but that's... odd? Thoughts:
7. You will follow the instructions of authorized personnel while in Vendetta Online or on the Official Forums.
Or? What? Lose our accounts if we refuse to do something a1k0n's new outsourced tech support slave tells us to do?
"11. You will not attempt to interfere with, hack into, or decipher any transmissions to or from the servers running Vendetta Online. "
It's a little late for that one...
13. You will not attempt to play Vendetta Online on any server that is not controlled or authorized by Guild Software Inc, or its designees.
Pre-emptive strike, or did something happen?
1. Foul language is not permitted, in any language.
Excessive use of foul language in an inappropriate context, including swear words, real-world racial slurs, and other language that is not consistent with the science fiction environment and designed to hurt, will be considered a disruption. The existence of the filter (game options) is not a license to be profane.
It looks to me as though this language permits RP slander/slurs/etc. By differentiating with real-world racial slurs, that means I can still call Sercos Secros. I think.
4. ... Examples of this activity include, but are not limited to, using deception to deprive another player of items,
That's a little wide-ranging. I understand preventing people from saying "I'm a dev, give me that widget." But rp conning isn't allowed? Why not?
Implying Favoritism by Guides - Stating that employees of Guild Software or members of the Guide program will show favor towards one or more parties involved in any given situation. This includes, but is not limited to, using threats of retribution or inferring that you will not be held accountable for your actions due to special consideration.
Umm. I think the guides are great and all. But, I mean, they're only human. Not only that, but all us ex-pre-alpha players know each other... I'm not so sure that favoritism doesn't exist. I've certainly gone on a few "rides" in the past.
Use the official forums as a staging-ground for creating general unrest within the game (e.g. Sit-ins).
We can't have in-game sit-ins? That's just MEAN!
Advertise web-sites with content that violates these rules, the Vendetta Online EULA, or Terms of Service.
So if I link to a site of, say, a pirate group that blockades sectors, my post is in violation of the rules?
Ohhh Big Brother really is watching!
rogue, the rules are there because we live in a litigious society. All it takes is one disgruntled person and a lawyer to bring down a business. By having rules or terms and conditions like these goes some way to prevent the kind of stupid law suites we have become accustomed too.
I work for a company designing and producing consumer electronics, some of our products are designed for use in a car. We have to have very clear warnings when the product is turned on telling the user not to use the product when the driving (which, since it’s a sat-nav system, is ridiculous) because all it would take is one crash, and we could be found liable.
Get over it.
rogue, the rules are there because we live in a litigious society. All it takes is one disgruntled person and a lawyer to bring down a business. By having rules or terms and conditions like these goes some way to prevent the kind of stupid law suites we have become accustomed too.
I work for a company designing and producing consumer electronics, some of our products are designed for use in a car. We have to have very clear warnings when the product is turned on telling the user not to use the product when the driving (which, since it’s a sat-nav system, is ridiculous) because all it would take is one crash, and we could be found liable.
Get over it.
Fine. I'll be extra mean to Roguelazer.
EDIT
I'll also take the names of any guides that have acted inappropriately. WHO is giving you free rides???
EDIT
I'll also take the names of any guides that have acted inappropriately. WHO is giving you free rides???
see Rogue, there is always a simple solution. =)
Hmm from the new rules I have only one recorse for expressing my discontent. Considering the small player base of this game, that may of been a poor move.
Until I get a warning, im going to carry on doing what I always have, but I think point 4. is neat:
4. You may not violate any local, state, national or international law or regulation.
(So we can when we dont play vendetta?)
And this one is plain scary:
"Disciplinary issues involving guilds may be addressed with the entire guild. Guilds whose members habitually violate these rules may be issued guild warnings, and can even be permanently disbanded."
Well, can we have some kind of You must notify the commander or ltnts of a guild before taking such action? I know I have recently kicked a player who had spent a few hours winding up everyone on channel 100 (including a few guides) well I wasnt online and came back to a few people saying *You should kick soso, he's a potty mouth* ect - What would happen if I couldnt log on for a few days? - I cant be here 24/7, and its unfair to ask this of us as players, sure, we can do so much (make sure we dont recriut that type) but well, turning guild brass into powerless guides isnt really a good idea you know.
Apart from that, reword it, or you may as well take away our targetting systems:
"Harassment is defined as specifically targeting another player or group of players to harm or inconvenience them."
Now does this actually mean I cannot pirate? because the group of people I target usually are trader types, and what about during PvP? I mean, i havent been using autoaim much, but I do at least target my opponent, is this so wrong? heh
4. You may not violate any local, state, national or international law or regulation.
(So we can when we dont play vendetta?)
And this one is plain scary:
"Disciplinary issues involving guilds may be addressed with the entire guild. Guilds whose members habitually violate these rules may be issued guild warnings, and can even be permanently disbanded."
Well, can we have some kind of You must notify the commander or ltnts of a guild before taking such action? I know I have recently kicked a player who had spent a few hours winding up everyone on channel 100 (including a few guides) well I wasnt online and came back to a few people saying *You should kick soso, he's a potty mouth* ect - What would happen if I couldnt log on for a few days? - I cant be here 24/7, and its unfair to ask this of us as players, sure, we can do so much (make sure we dont recriut that type) but well, turning guild brass into powerless guides isnt really a good idea you know.
Apart from that, reword it, or you may as well take away our targetting systems:
"Harassment is defined as specifically targeting another player or group of players to harm or inconvenience them."
Now does this actually mean I cannot pirate? because the group of people I target usually are trader types, and what about during PvP? I mean, i havent been using autoaim much, but I do at least target my opponent, is this so wrong? heh
Sounds to me like pvp is in jepordy. Take for instance, the fact that there are limited numbers of serco online per day. I myself, like to kill only serco if I can help it. To me, it's part of my characters personality profile. But say a serco decides to cry because I've killed them 5 times in a row in B8, is that considered harassment because they feel I've been singling them out, yet they are the only one online, or is this a guide call situation??
Also, pirates are another target now due to the new conduct rules, cause how can they possibly make any kind of living if they can't lay traps and block wormholes and hunt traders down.
I'm also a bit clueless, did something happen this last weekend while I was away that spurred this new CoC on or was this part of the new guide rules thing that was being worked on?
Also, pirates are another target now due to the new conduct rules, cause how can they possibly make any kind of living if they can't lay traps and block wormholes and hunt traders down.
I'm also a bit clueless, did something happen this last weekend while I was away that spurred this new CoC on or was this part of the new guide rules thing that was being worked on?
It sounds like this topic really needs to have input from a dev so all know what is/isn't appropiate.....
Deep breaths, people. If you've read the EULA, you know that it has referred to the Rules of Conduct for quite awhile. My best guess is someone realized that no rules had been posted.
Do you really believe that Guild intends to to eliminate PvP or pirates? Really? It's pretty clear that what we have here is some drafting that needs to be tightened up. Rather than the Chicken Little approach, how 'bout we just point out where the problems are and make some constructive suggestions?
Do you really believe that Guild intends to to eliminate PvP or pirates? Really? It's pretty clear that what we have here is some drafting that needs to be tightened up. Rather than the Chicken Little approach, how 'bout we just point out where the problems are and make some constructive suggestions?
I look at it more as a front line of defense agaisnt lawsuits...
Not to mention tha tmost (if not all) can be summed up as be nice. But hey I'm a carebear and I wasn't planning to break any of those conducts anyway...
anyway as always rules are there to be stretched and bended... but they give the option of disable/punishment/etc in case behaviour goes beyond bending the rules but breaking them. (which is where guides/devs try to step in).
This just allows them to do so juridicial.
just my 2 cents.
Not to mention tha tmost (if not all) can be summed up as be nice. But hey I'm a carebear and I wasn't planning to break any of those conducts anyway...
anyway as always rules are there to be stretched and bended... but they give the option of disable/punishment/etc in case behaviour goes beyond bending the rules but breaking them. (which is where guides/devs try to step in).
This just allows them to do so juridicial.
just my 2 cents.
I just find it funny that you design a game around shoot at each other, call it "Vendetta" and then expect each other to be carebears!
Be Nice ≠ Vendetta
just MY 2 cents.
Be Nice ≠ Vendetta
just MY 2 cents.
the gamename Vendetta means in my eyes a contineous struggle, aka like between itani and serco. It does not mean throw around slurs and insults just since someone consider that fun or befitting.
And the game does not revolve around shooting at each other... since people can trade, mine (late rprobably craft) which does not have anyhting to do with shooting... shooting at each other is however an option... but not the sole intention. Its just a means to an end (a decissionway, same way as rolling a dice is). Albeit stressreleaving
It does however try to keep the game fun to play in for the average Joe.
Like I implied above, nothing keeps anybody from being a jackass or... but in case that this person does in fact harm the community more (eg: community as a whole complain, or a dev doesn't think it is appropiate) they have the option to take an action (eg warn a dev who keeps a tab o nthe behaviour and interferes if needed) by first of all warning the jackass. And if the behaviour continueos to sanction them reffering to the rules of conduct.
Once more, it gives an option of interfering in case of abuse but does not mean that they will sit around all days long watching every behaviour and banning anybody that throws around 1 insult etc...
There is a difference with laws and lawenforcement.
And the game does not revolve around shooting at each other... since people can trade, mine (late rprobably craft) which does not have anyhting to do with shooting... shooting at each other is however an option... but not the sole intention. Its just a means to an end (a decissionway, same way as rolling a dice is). Albeit stressreleaving
It does however try to keep the game fun to play in for the average Joe.
Like I implied above, nothing keeps anybody from being a jackass or... but in case that this person does in fact harm the community more (eg: community as a whole complain, or a dev doesn't think it is appropiate) they have the option to take an action (eg warn a dev who keeps a tab o nthe behaviour and interferes if needed) by first of all warning the jackass. And if the behaviour continueos to sanction them reffering to the rules of conduct.
Once more, it gives an option of interfering in case of abuse but does not mean that they will sit around all days long watching every behaviour and banning anybody that throws around 1 insult etc...
There is a difference with laws and lawenforcement.
What community?
Relax.
Okay the language added to the EULA is pretty obviously a general template that does not entirely fit what is intended to go on here in Vendetta. It was added in before we had a chance to finish poring over it "backstage". Please do not jump to conclusions about the direction Guild is taking based on the new language.
The comments and clarifications so far are appreciated.
Okay the language added to the EULA is pretty obviously a general template that does not entirely fit what is intended to go on here in Vendetta. It was added in before we had a chance to finish poring over it "backstage". Please do not jump to conclusions about the direction Guild is taking based on the new language.
The comments and clarifications so far are appreciated.
people playing the game...(and yes im not part of it now)
Or the one that will be build once vendetta goes mainstream? Or whatever it just seemed a befitting point to make. And an option (maybe not now but later only time will tell).
PS: I didn't say that the community (group of players) will be able to ban people... they will however be able to go to a dev and ask them to take a closer look at the behaviour exerted. I'm sure that that already happens now... (although it wouldn't surprise me if for the moment guides take those initial steps in stead of some players)
Or the one that will be build once vendetta goes mainstream? Or whatever it just seemed a befitting point to make. And an option (maybe not now but later only time will tell).
PS: I didn't say that the community (group of players) will be able to ban people... they will however be able to go to a dev and ask them to take a closer look at the behaviour exerted. I'm sure that that already happens now... (although it wouldn't surprise me if for the moment guides take those initial steps in stead of some players)
In case anyone missed my responses to the thread in the general forum: No I am not banning PvP or Piracy in any way shape or form (this is a PvP game, and not a carebear game). Yes, the rules probably need work, continue to post suggestions and I'll roll them into the next version, or clarify the existing wording to clear up any concerns.
At the end of the day, all it really means is "Keep playing the game as you always have, but Guild has well-documented grounds for being able to remove you from the game if we see fit". A rather Icky, Authoritarian, and overall Distastful reality that I must deal with in order to continue a company in, as simondearsly says, a litigous society. I liked Be Nice much better. Oh well.
At the end of the day, all it really means is "Keep playing the game as you always have, but Guild has well-documented grounds for being able to remove you from the game if we see fit". A rather Icky, Authoritarian, and overall Distastful reality that I must deal with in order to continue a company in, as simondearsly says, a litigous society. I liked Be Nice much better. Oh well.
See a thread I made here:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/10997
Pirating is still alive. See incarnates post here:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/10997#128611
I thought it should be in general since it wasn't a suggestion thread, but a comment thread. I guess i was wrong.
Anyway my only suggestion:
I'm still concerned that these rules might be abused, especially if a guide doesn't like someone. (I'm not accusing any guide here)But maybe a group, involving more then one developer and guides, should be in charge of permantly banning someone. just a thought.
JB
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/10997
Pirating is still alive. See incarnates post here:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/1/10997#128611
I thought it should be in general since it wasn't a suggestion thread, but a comment thread. I guess i was wrong.
Anyway my only suggestion:
I'm still concerned that these rules might be abused, especially if a guide doesn't like someone. (I'm not accusing any guide here)But maybe a group, involving more then one developer and guides, should be in charge of permantly banning someone. just a thought.
JB
Hmm. I'm not entirely sure if Guides even have the ability to permanently ban someone, or if that's a Developer-level thing. Regardless, there is oversight over Guide activies.. and like all our previous discussions of "will there be guide abuse, etc etc" (like when we first made Whistler a guide, and several times since).. the buck stops here, with me. Anyone who has a problem with Guide decisions can email me directly and complain about it.
I remember at one point Whistler was concerned about Banning being a guide ability (I know it was originally in the command set).. I just can't remember if it is anymore. Regardless, I'm not concerned about it, we would find out about anyone being banned, and if it really did turn out to be a case of abuse of power (remember, we have all the logs of EVERYTHING server side) then that person would certainly not be a guide for very long. I think everyone (Guides included) understand that. And.. aside from that.. they're all pretty decent people to begin with.
Any time you give power to a group of people, there's concern of corruption, but I don't think the player conduct rules change anything in regards to that.
I remember at one point Whistler was concerned about Banning being a guide ability (I know it was originally in the command set).. I just can't remember if it is anymore. Regardless, I'm not concerned about it, we would find out about anyone being banned, and if it really did turn out to be a case of abuse of power (remember, we have all the logs of EVERYTHING server side) then that person would certainly not be a guide for very long. I think everyone (Guides included) understand that. And.. aside from that.. they're all pretty decent people to begin with.
Any time you give power to a group of people, there's concern of corruption, but I don't think the player conduct rules change anything in regards to that.