Forums » Suggestions
With the new hive (hopefully) coming into play here in the next few days and the mission editor being completed to allow a more rapid generation of content vendetta is entering exciting times. While ship balancing and work on the capital ships should undoubtedly continue, one area of vendetta remains quite basic and could use some significant upgrades, namely the economic model.
As always my comments and suggestions are merely that. All of this is just food for thought, and any constructive comments are appreciated.
In the past I have written several very long posts on this subject, and while I still feel mostly the same and haven't changed my views very radically I will repost them here with the modifications I have come up with. (Mostly because I'm too lazy find the threads... it's been a while)
To start with the basic organization of the trade goods needs to be more intuitive so that looking at a station's information in the navmap would give a better idea of what a pilot would find there in terms of equipment, trade goods, and ships. There should be a roughly understood progression from "ore" to "finished product", a supply chain if you will.
Each item in vendetta should be (and I believe already is) made up of other, less complex items; as an example, Steel would probably be made up of ferric and carbonic ore.
Different station "types" (ex. mining, commercial, capital, and barracks) need to offer different and predictable "kinds" of trade good, and as such each would demand a predictable "kind" of trade good. Additionally each station would have a "tech level" that would provide a rough idea of how sophisticated the stations supply and demand is.
Stations with a higher tech level would be able to produce more advanced goods, offer equipment from higher license levels, and also demand goods from farther along the manufacturing chain.
To facilitate this I suggest the following "kinds" of trade items, and the following categories of station "types".
Some potential kinds of trade goods, and their associated tech level, not all of these items have a game equivalent at present. Creating a more detailed economy such as this would obviously require quite a few more products to move around.
Variable tech (these items span multiple tech categories):
Chemicals: - produced in different strengths and combinations, ranging from byproducts of the refining process to custom tailored compounds made in high grade clean rooms. Chemicals can be used in almost any stage of the manufacturing chain depending on the tech level of the specific chemical and finished product involved.
Food: - Everything from barely edible freeze dried food to gourmet meals carefully stored in shock absorbent packaging. The basic dietary needs of a stations population are met at each station, however some places you can purchase varying quality food items and trade them for a profit. Be careful tho, the miners at a fringe station wont be impressed with a 7 layer chocolate tort cake that costs more then a months pay, and the scientists at a high grade lab want food for thought, not a piece of beef jerky so dry you have to soak it for a week to have a chance at chewing it.
Basic Tech (1):
-Ores: - ores are mined from rocks. (duh)
-Metals: - goods that can be directly refined from ores; Steel for example.
Low tech (2-3):
-Low grade component: - basic part used in making more complex items. Has no use except as part of something else. Low grade components are usually nothing more than metals that have been processed at a manufacturing plant. (Think basic nuts, bolts, simple electric switches, etc etc)
-Low grade consumer goods: - the most basic kinds of mass produced items for the population at large, a real world equivalent would be a toaster from the dollar store. These items are created from metals and low grade components, would also include things like clothing.
-Alloys: - alloys are metals that have been combined to form a more durable material. This category would also include things like synthwood or plassteel that are most likely formed using a combination of metals and chemicals.
Medium Tech (4-6):
-Medium Grade Component: - more sophisticated part, might be made of several low grade components. These items are still used only as parts of other products. They are made from alloys that have been processed and refined, similar to things like the electric motor for a DVD player or the condenser on a refrigerator.
-Medium Grade Consumer Goods: - average complexity items for the population at large, made from Alloys and medium grade components.
-Synthetics: - Made by processing alloys with high quality chemicals, synthetics allow exceptional durability and other traits to be combined. Examples would be plassteel or vismetal.
-Basic Equipment Components: - the simplest parts for spaceships, weapons, mining equipment, etc. These items are made from medium grade components and alloys at special manufacturing stations. Things like Oxygen Recycling systems and basic targeting systems.
High Tech (7-9):
-High Grade Component: - Sophisticated parts for manufacture of high tech items. Processed from several alloys and metals at a plant of the appropriate tech level, these items are equivalent to things like high grade computer chips, Liquid Crystal Displays etc.
-High Grade Consumer Goods: - Made from high grade components and various metals synthetics or alloys these are the most expensive items available for the general public. Things like consumer robotics would fall under this group, as would most of the ship equipment such as mineral scanners and mining beams.
Advanced Equipment Components: - more complex parts for ships and weapons. Phase arrays, plasma cores, etc.
-Basic Ships: - basic ship models. Most of the mark 1 variant ships except for the specials, probably the mk 2 and 3 variants of the lower level ships along with all of the cargo and mining vessels.
Military Tech: (10-classified :D )
-Special Ships: - The rest of the ships
-Weapons: -the weapons
Obviously not everything fits perfectly into one of the above categories. They are presented merely to offer an example of the type of breakdown I have in mind. The one item I didn't mention above was water. Water is a level 0 tech item. Every station with aquean ore nearby refines its own water for manufacturing and purifies some for drinking. All the same it should be left in as a trade item because a good randomized universal mission would involve a disaster at a station¡¦s water purification plant and offer a reward in XP and cash for every XXX containers of purified water that gets delivered.
Moving on to the station types.
-mining: mining stations are the best place to purchase ores and mining enhancements for your ship. The only place to get mining missions, they usually offer limited ships and equipment for purchase, mostly the ships best suited for mining with a few light fast fighter variants that have been retrofitted to act as prospecting ships. Mining stations usually offer a good price for the basics, low tech food, low grade components, etc.
-Refinery: refining stations are a central clearinghouse where ores of all types are turned into metals, alloys and synthetics, and produce some low grade chemicals as a byproduct when the high tech chemicals are used to create synthetics. Usually refining stations don¡¦t offer much more in the way of ship and equipment choices than a mining station, however depending on the tech level of the refinery it will demand higher and higher grades of chemicals in addition to the basic ores that all refineries consume at a frantic pace.
Manufacturing stations: these stations have the widest range of tech levels. Usually demanding components and producing goods of the appropriate tech level, they are the mainstay of the manufacturing process. These stations offer a wide range of ships and equipment depending on the tech level of the station involved.
Research stations: the labs of the universe. These stations create chemicals of all tech levels and are also responsible for most of the weapons manufacturing done in the vendetta universe. High end ships and equipment are available at these stations.
Commercial stations: these stations buy and sell everything. They manufacture nothing of note, but rather act as a mass market for all goods. While you can make more money taking items directly to a station that actually needs them, and you can buy items where they are made for less, a commercial station offers a modest profit to a wise trader, often at a central location which cuts down travel time. Almost all ships, weapons and equipment are available at commercial stations for a moderately higher price.
Capitol stations: The government centers of the universe offer business opportunities that are similar to commercial stations, however they have very good prices on faction specific goods and ships, and often offer the best prices on ships and equipment to people in good standing with the faction they represent. Capitol stations are almost always of the highest tech level.
Now that the basic layout of the economy has been discussed, some time needs to be spent on the actual mechanics of how items are priced and how trading affects the prices. The current method of unlimited supply at a fixed sale price is clumsy at best, offering the option of stockpiling goods at a station then selling all at once with no limit on how many you can purchase from the supplier.
Since each item in the game already has a base value, a fairly simple solution would be as follows.
My suggestion would be for each station to have a list of products it sells (Products), and from that list a second list of items the station needs to purchase would be generated (materials), based on the above premise that every cargo in vendetta requires less complex cargos to create it.
Products have a value at that station that starts at approximately 10% less than their base value.
Materials have a value at that station that starts at approximately 10% higher than their base value.
These "station values" will then vary based on the following:
-Each time the station sells a product, the price of that product goes up just a bit, and the amount of money it will pay for the materials goes up accordingly.
-When a station buys a material, that price of the material goes down a bit, as does the price of the product it goes into making.
-Materials will have a maximum selling price that is around 300% (3 times) their station value.
-Products will have a minimum price, probably about 33% of their station value.
In the above fashion stations still provide an unlimited number of goods, but the more products that are purchased without restocking the materials the higher the price will get, until eventually the price of the product is higher than what it will sell for at the next station in the chain.
NPC traders will need to be dynamically allocated to help keep prices reasonable. For example if a station has sold a large number of a specific product the price of the materials that are required will have reached a high point. If the value of the materials remains high for a long time, more and more NPC traders should begin trying to supply that demand. On the same token if someone is constantly bringing materials to a station and causing the price of the product they are used to create to fall, NPC traders should begin to visit that station specifically to purchase that product.
Finally, to add further customization to each faction, every faction should have at least one station that produces some form of "faction" specific good. This will be a consumer good of some sort that is only produced by that faction, and can only be purchased at stations where it is produced. This will allow long distance trading to become more rewarding and interesting.
EDIT-
Additionally to all of the above, the refresh rate for prices in a station needs to become much higher, (say every 6 seconds or so) or it needs to be tied directly to the action of buying or selling an item. Many other online games use a real-time update on the costs of goods and services so there is no reason it cant be done in vendetta as well. This would eliminate the semi-exploit of stockpiling goods and then bombing the market with them. I mean... seriously, if a manufacturer needs 100 of item A, after he gets the 100 he's not going to continue to pay full price for it. He certaintly isn't going to buy 10,000 at top value just to get 100.
As always my comments and suggestions are merely that. All of this is just food for thought, and any constructive comments are appreciated.
In the past I have written several very long posts on this subject, and while I still feel mostly the same and haven't changed my views very radically I will repost them here with the modifications I have come up with. (Mostly because I'm too lazy find the threads... it's been a while)
To start with the basic organization of the trade goods needs to be more intuitive so that looking at a station's information in the navmap would give a better idea of what a pilot would find there in terms of equipment, trade goods, and ships. There should be a roughly understood progression from "ore" to "finished product", a supply chain if you will.
Each item in vendetta should be (and I believe already is) made up of other, less complex items; as an example, Steel would probably be made up of ferric and carbonic ore.
Different station "types" (ex. mining, commercial, capital, and barracks) need to offer different and predictable "kinds" of trade good, and as such each would demand a predictable "kind" of trade good. Additionally each station would have a "tech level" that would provide a rough idea of how sophisticated the stations supply and demand is.
Stations with a higher tech level would be able to produce more advanced goods, offer equipment from higher license levels, and also demand goods from farther along the manufacturing chain.
To facilitate this I suggest the following "kinds" of trade items, and the following categories of station "types".
Some potential kinds of trade goods, and their associated tech level, not all of these items have a game equivalent at present. Creating a more detailed economy such as this would obviously require quite a few more products to move around.
Variable tech (these items span multiple tech categories):
Chemicals: - produced in different strengths and combinations, ranging from byproducts of the refining process to custom tailored compounds made in high grade clean rooms. Chemicals can be used in almost any stage of the manufacturing chain depending on the tech level of the specific chemical and finished product involved.
Food: - Everything from barely edible freeze dried food to gourmet meals carefully stored in shock absorbent packaging. The basic dietary needs of a stations population are met at each station, however some places you can purchase varying quality food items and trade them for a profit. Be careful tho, the miners at a fringe station wont be impressed with a 7 layer chocolate tort cake that costs more then a months pay, and the scientists at a high grade lab want food for thought, not a piece of beef jerky so dry you have to soak it for a week to have a chance at chewing it.
Basic Tech (1):
-Ores: - ores are mined from rocks. (duh)
-Metals: - goods that can be directly refined from ores; Steel for example.
Low tech (2-3):
-Low grade component: - basic part used in making more complex items. Has no use except as part of something else. Low grade components are usually nothing more than metals that have been processed at a manufacturing plant. (Think basic nuts, bolts, simple electric switches, etc etc)
-Low grade consumer goods: - the most basic kinds of mass produced items for the population at large, a real world equivalent would be a toaster from the dollar store. These items are created from metals and low grade components, would also include things like clothing.
-Alloys: - alloys are metals that have been combined to form a more durable material. This category would also include things like synthwood or plassteel that are most likely formed using a combination of metals and chemicals.
Medium Tech (4-6):
-Medium Grade Component: - more sophisticated part, might be made of several low grade components. These items are still used only as parts of other products. They are made from alloys that have been processed and refined, similar to things like the electric motor for a DVD player or the condenser on a refrigerator.
-Medium Grade Consumer Goods: - average complexity items for the population at large, made from Alloys and medium grade components.
-Synthetics: - Made by processing alloys with high quality chemicals, synthetics allow exceptional durability and other traits to be combined. Examples would be plassteel or vismetal.
-Basic Equipment Components: - the simplest parts for spaceships, weapons, mining equipment, etc. These items are made from medium grade components and alloys at special manufacturing stations. Things like Oxygen Recycling systems and basic targeting systems.
High Tech (7-9):
-High Grade Component: - Sophisticated parts for manufacture of high tech items. Processed from several alloys and metals at a plant of the appropriate tech level, these items are equivalent to things like high grade computer chips, Liquid Crystal Displays etc.
-High Grade Consumer Goods: - Made from high grade components and various metals synthetics or alloys these are the most expensive items available for the general public. Things like consumer robotics would fall under this group, as would most of the ship equipment such as mineral scanners and mining beams.
Advanced Equipment Components: - more complex parts for ships and weapons. Phase arrays, plasma cores, etc.
-Basic Ships: - basic ship models. Most of the mark 1 variant ships except for the specials, probably the mk 2 and 3 variants of the lower level ships along with all of the cargo and mining vessels.
Military Tech: (10-classified :D )
-Special Ships: - The rest of the ships
-Weapons: -the weapons
Obviously not everything fits perfectly into one of the above categories. They are presented merely to offer an example of the type of breakdown I have in mind. The one item I didn't mention above was water. Water is a level 0 tech item. Every station with aquean ore nearby refines its own water for manufacturing and purifies some for drinking. All the same it should be left in as a trade item because a good randomized universal mission would involve a disaster at a station¡¦s water purification plant and offer a reward in XP and cash for every XXX containers of purified water that gets delivered.
Moving on to the station types.
-mining: mining stations are the best place to purchase ores and mining enhancements for your ship. The only place to get mining missions, they usually offer limited ships and equipment for purchase, mostly the ships best suited for mining with a few light fast fighter variants that have been retrofitted to act as prospecting ships. Mining stations usually offer a good price for the basics, low tech food, low grade components, etc.
-Refinery: refining stations are a central clearinghouse where ores of all types are turned into metals, alloys and synthetics, and produce some low grade chemicals as a byproduct when the high tech chemicals are used to create synthetics. Usually refining stations don¡¦t offer much more in the way of ship and equipment choices than a mining station, however depending on the tech level of the refinery it will demand higher and higher grades of chemicals in addition to the basic ores that all refineries consume at a frantic pace.
Manufacturing stations: these stations have the widest range of tech levels. Usually demanding components and producing goods of the appropriate tech level, they are the mainstay of the manufacturing process. These stations offer a wide range of ships and equipment depending on the tech level of the station involved.
Research stations: the labs of the universe. These stations create chemicals of all tech levels and are also responsible for most of the weapons manufacturing done in the vendetta universe. High end ships and equipment are available at these stations.
Commercial stations: these stations buy and sell everything. They manufacture nothing of note, but rather act as a mass market for all goods. While you can make more money taking items directly to a station that actually needs them, and you can buy items where they are made for less, a commercial station offers a modest profit to a wise trader, often at a central location which cuts down travel time. Almost all ships, weapons and equipment are available at commercial stations for a moderately higher price.
Capitol stations: The government centers of the universe offer business opportunities that are similar to commercial stations, however they have very good prices on faction specific goods and ships, and often offer the best prices on ships and equipment to people in good standing with the faction they represent. Capitol stations are almost always of the highest tech level.
Now that the basic layout of the economy has been discussed, some time needs to be spent on the actual mechanics of how items are priced and how trading affects the prices. The current method of unlimited supply at a fixed sale price is clumsy at best, offering the option of stockpiling goods at a station then selling all at once with no limit on how many you can purchase from the supplier.
Since each item in the game already has a base value, a fairly simple solution would be as follows.
My suggestion would be for each station to have a list of products it sells (Products), and from that list a second list of items the station needs to purchase would be generated (materials), based on the above premise that every cargo in vendetta requires less complex cargos to create it.
Products have a value at that station that starts at approximately 10% less than their base value.
Materials have a value at that station that starts at approximately 10% higher than their base value.
These "station values" will then vary based on the following:
-Each time the station sells a product, the price of that product goes up just a bit, and the amount of money it will pay for the materials goes up accordingly.
-When a station buys a material, that price of the material goes down a bit, as does the price of the product it goes into making.
-Materials will have a maximum selling price that is around 300% (3 times) their station value.
-Products will have a minimum price, probably about 33% of their station value.
In the above fashion stations still provide an unlimited number of goods, but the more products that are purchased without restocking the materials the higher the price will get, until eventually the price of the product is higher than what it will sell for at the next station in the chain.
NPC traders will need to be dynamically allocated to help keep prices reasonable. For example if a station has sold a large number of a specific product the price of the materials that are required will have reached a high point. If the value of the materials remains high for a long time, more and more NPC traders should begin trying to supply that demand. On the same token if someone is constantly bringing materials to a station and causing the price of the product they are used to create to fall, NPC traders should begin to visit that station specifically to purchase that product.
Finally, to add further customization to each faction, every faction should have at least one station that produces some form of "faction" specific good. This will be a consumer good of some sort that is only produced by that faction, and can only be purchased at stations where it is produced. This will allow long distance trading to become more rewarding and interesting.
EDIT-
Additionally to all of the above, the refresh rate for prices in a station needs to become much higher, (say every 6 seconds or so) or it needs to be tied directly to the action of buying or selling an item. Many other online games use a real-time update on the costs of goods and services so there is no reason it cant be done in vendetta as well. This would eliminate the semi-exploit of stockpiling goods and then bombing the market with them. I mean... seriously, if a manufacturer needs 100 of item A, after he gets the 100 he's not going to continue to pay full price for it. He certaintly isn't going to buy 10,000 at top value just to get 100.
Yes great idea, may even get me back into trading if implemented.
Though I still want to see drug running. >:)
Edit: Oh and I love the "faction goods" idea, I think it would add more uniqueness to the the game.
Though I still want to see drug running. >:)
Edit: Oh and I love the "faction goods" idea, I think it would add more uniqueness to the the game.
Borb, why don't you just trade "Medical Supplies" & "Personal Defense Systems", which would covers pharmaceutical supplies as wells as small arms and such? Sure it doesn't have the glamor of being more underground but it's pretty much the same thing.
Spellcast-
Overall I love what you came up with. Since your suggestion implies that the npc traders are the backbone of the equilibrium of the price of each trade good at stations, that if a blockade were set up by player pirates and they were not allowed to either buy or sell the good in question that that particular trade good would be inflated beyond the preset max limit (300% or 33%) to reflect the fact that traders are dieing in space to get that good.
Also, just to be anal, and I know it's not anything set in stone, but "Steel" is an alloy, made up of iron, which is a refined ore, and carbon, which is added to make it stronger. So it should fall under the "MediumTech:Alloy" catagory, not the "Basic Tech:Metal".
Other then that, I hope the devs implement some if not all of this!!
Spellcast-
Overall I love what you came up with. Since your suggestion implies that the npc traders are the backbone of the equilibrium of the price of each trade good at stations, that if a blockade were set up by player pirates and they were not allowed to either buy or sell the good in question that that particular trade good would be inflated beyond the preset max limit (300% or 33%) to reflect the fact that traders are dieing in space to get that good.
Also, just to be anal, and I know it's not anything set in stone, but "Steel" is an alloy, made up of iron, which is a refined ore, and carbon, which is added to make it stronger. So it should fall under the "MediumTech:Alloy" catagory, not the "Basic Tech:Metal".
Other then that, I hope the devs implement some if not all of this!!
Hmm good idea... If only the pay was better.
So who want's to buy some.
/me looks around
Tylenol?
/me opens up his jacket showing many un-marked bottles full of tylenol
So who want's to buy some.
/me looks around
Tylenol?
/me opens up his jacket showing many un-marked bottles full of tylenol
*drools* uhm... I'LL TAKE IT ALL BORB!
make sure he gives you the Tylenol with the codeen in it!!
actually i'm aware that steel is an alloy in and of itself, but since its also about the most basic component anyone is likely to be using in the timeframe involved i went ahead and called it a metal.
Actually the named group "alloys" should probably be "advanced alloy's" and the group named "metals" should probably be labeled "alloys". I dont really forsee anyone making an iron hulled spaceship anytime soon after all, but i was having a little trouble coming up with names for all the categories.
As far as the preset min/max... no I added those as a permanant limit, otherwise you end up with some very silly prices, at least as far as the sale price of a product. (i figure 33% is what the cost of electricity, mortage payments, and labor would be even if the materials are totally free)
The NPC's would begin to act when the price reached ~175% for materials and ~70% for products. The amount of goods to cause a change would need to be altered so that changes in price aren't as easy to effect.
Keep in mind that the limits are only on one side of the equation. its a way of representing that no station will PAY more than 300% (or whatever number is decided upon) for the raw material. If the market gets flooded enough the stations will certantly pay 1 credit for the materiel if anyone were to deliver that many goods.
By the same token even the most significant amount of raw materiels won't make the manufacturers take a loss on the production cost itself, hence the 33% limit on products. Once again, if you want to buy so many that you are paying 50 or 100 times what a product is normally worth, they will happily sell it to you at that price.
One thing i didnt mention above, and have now added, is that the update for the prices would need to be altered so that each individual item (or group of items) sold causes an instant change in the value of the item. this way stockpiling will be eliminated.
EDIT: Oh, and borb, kix, john, can we take the tylenol off topicness to another thread.
EDIT2: oh, and yea borb, there certaintly could be cargos that were illegal in certain factions, that shouldnt be that hard to add.
Actually the named group "alloys" should probably be "advanced alloy's" and the group named "metals" should probably be labeled "alloys". I dont really forsee anyone making an iron hulled spaceship anytime soon after all, but i was having a little trouble coming up with names for all the categories.
As far as the preset min/max... no I added those as a permanant limit, otherwise you end up with some very silly prices, at least as far as the sale price of a product. (i figure 33% is what the cost of electricity, mortage payments, and labor would be even if the materials are totally free)
The NPC's would begin to act when the price reached ~175% for materials and ~70% for products. The amount of goods to cause a change would need to be altered so that changes in price aren't as easy to effect.
Keep in mind that the limits are only on one side of the equation. its a way of representing that no station will PAY more than 300% (or whatever number is decided upon) for the raw material. If the market gets flooded enough the stations will certantly pay 1 credit for the materiel if anyone were to deliver that many goods.
By the same token even the most significant amount of raw materiels won't make the manufacturers take a loss on the production cost itself, hence the 33% limit on products. Once again, if you want to buy so many that you are paying 50 or 100 times what a product is normally worth, they will happily sell it to you at that price.
One thing i didnt mention above, and have now added, is that the update for the prices would need to be altered so that each individual item (or group of items) sold causes an instant change in the value of the item. this way stockpiling will be eliminated.
EDIT: Oh, and borb, kix, john, can we take the tylenol off topicness to another thread.
EDIT2: oh, and yea borb, there certaintly could be cargos that were illegal in certain factions, that shouldnt be that hard to add.
something I have yet ever to see mentioned, and if stockpiling is to go the way of the horse and carage, is that the 120 max unit sold per "sell" be eliminated as well so that you can sell 500 units if you want or 50 units if you want. In fact, I still don't understand why that is in place at all at the moment, just seems like something to make it harder to get rid of your goods.
actually the limit is an old carryover that i cant remember the reason for.
However it should stay and the economic refresh rate be dropped to ~ every 6 seconds unless the sale of goods becomes a "real-time" economic model, where selling 500 units will result in the sale of (for example) 125 units at "full" price, and each additional 25 units at a 5% reduction in price.
However it should stay and the economic refresh rate be dropped to ~ every 6 seconds unless the sale of goods becomes a "real-time" economic model, where selling 500 units will result in the sale of (for example) 125 units at "full" price, and each additional 25 units at a 5% reduction in price.
The economy should treat bulk sales as plural individual sales. That'd teach them stockpilers...
Im not understanding that, since, If I have say 360 units of heliocene and I sell 120 3 times, I still get the same price, it's only when I undock and come back in that the price updates to the new lowered price, so what would be the difference between selling it in three batches, instead of one large batch, under current system?
additionally, I think there should be a bartering system as well for selling, and I've outlined here a way of doing it: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/10255#117494
Sorry for taking this slightly off topic.
additionally, I think there should be a bartering system as well for selling, and I've outlined here a way of doing it: http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/10255#117494
Sorry for taking this slightly off topic.
""If I have say 360 units of heliocene and I sell 120 3 times:""
Under the CURRENT system there is no difference,
thats the problem with stockpiling and the current system, and why the way the station refreshes prices needs to be changed.
Ideally each individual item sold should decrease the value the station is offering for that item by XXX percent as rogulazer suggests. If such a system were in place then the limit could be removed and no trouble could result from stockpiling.
If that is too complex to impliment at the present time, then leaving the 120 unit limit in effect and changing it so that the station price updates automatically every 6 seconds would work almost as well.
The problem stockpiling presents at present is that it allows a player to "cheat" the dynamic economy by waiting to sell all his or her cargo at one high price. In a real economy if you hauled 10,000 gallons of milk to a grocery store, and the store only wanted 50 gallons, thats all they would buy from you. You might be able to get them to buy some of the rest at a severe discount, but they would refuse to pay full price for it.
In vendetta as it is now, you basically force the grocery store to buy all 10,000 gallons at a premium price, its counter-intuitive and (to me) ruins the immersiveness of the game.
Under the CURRENT system there is no difference,
thats the problem with stockpiling and the current system, and why the way the station refreshes prices needs to be changed.
Ideally each individual item sold should decrease the value the station is offering for that item by XXX percent as rogulazer suggests. If such a system were in place then the limit could be removed and no trouble could result from stockpiling.
If that is too complex to impliment at the present time, then leaving the 120 unit limit in effect and changing it so that the station price updates automatically every 6 seconds would work almost as well.
The problem stockpiling presents at present is that it allows a player to "cheat" the dynamic economy by waiting to sell all his or her cargo at one high price. In a real economy if you hauled 10,000 gallons of milk to a grocery store, and the store only wanted 50 gallons, thats all they would buy from you. You might be able to get them to buy some of the rest at a severe discount, but they would refuse to pay full price for it.
In vendetta as it is now, you basically force the grocery store to buy all 10,000 gallons at a premium price, its counter-intuitive and (to me) ruins the immersiveness of the game.
Okay, I have to break this to you all without letting you know too much. The price update does not depend on whether you leave the station. Spellcast's example of 10,000 gallons would not all sell at premium price. I would say, the price drops in a lagged way. You sell to the station, but the demand doesn't go down until the stuff is put into market. For example, if there was a huge amount of oil to be found in some desert, the price of oil would fall immediately. The oil drilling companies would have to agree to sell at a certain price and a certain amount to not totally ruin market. It is somewhat the same here, despite it actually being somewhat of a "bug".
Currently, if Spellcast were to make each sale update the station, the station would update every time someone sells. Well duh, but what does that lead to? Station update clears the station UI and reloads all the info, clearing away what item you had clicked and how far down the scrollbars you went. imagine that every six seconds. Under the when sell system, when we have a lot of people, that will really piss people off. The current system also benefits big time traders over small traders. My huge load of 3000cu would be worth more than 6 separate 500cu trips.
This also plays into a new market method some of us have been using. It's like a stock market. Some of us leave large amounts here and there and sell it all when the time is right. However, it's always possible someone else sells their stuff there before you. OUCH!
I think the devs should already know how the trade system works (otherwise we'd be in big trouble). It seems quite alright for me. People who can move more goods faster get better pay than people who only make small deals. Big amounts of cargo stored somewhere with a rising price, that price can drop, so big trade is more risky. You could gain a lot more money, or lose a whole lot. I think they would agree with me that putting in a 6 second station udpate would
1.Lag a lot, eat server, w/e.
2.Possibly piss people off when they're looking at weapon stats.
3.Make every trader in VO only able to be just as good as any other trader, even those who devote a whole guild to it.
If the dev's make the station update like so, big trade guilds would almost fall apart.
Currently, if Spellcast were to make each sale update the station, the station would update every time someone sells. Well duh, but what does that lead to? Station update clears the station UI and reloads all the info, clearing away what item you had clicked and how far down the scrollbars you went. imagine that every six seconds. Under the when sell system, when we have a lot of people, that will really piss people off. The current system also benefits big time traders over small traders. My huge load of 3000cu would be worth more than 6 separate 500cu trips.
This also plays into a new market method some of us have been using. It's like a stock market. Some of us leave large amounts here and there and sell it all when the time is right. However, it's always possible someone else sells their stuff there before you. OUCH!
I think the devs should already know how the trade system works (otherwise we'd be in big trouble). It seems quite alright for me. People who can move more goods faster get better pay than people who only make small deals. Big amounts of cargo stored somewhere with a rising price, that price can drop, so big trade is more risky. You could gain a lot more money, or lose a whole lot. I think they would agree with me that putting in a 6 second station udpate would
1.Lag a lot, eat server, w/e.
2.Possibly piss people off when they're looking at weapon stats.
3.Make every trader in VO only able to be just as good as any other trader, even those who devote a whole guild to it.
If the dev's make the station update like so, big trade guilds would almost fall apart.
I have no idea what your post says fnugget. you dont appear to follow a clear thought through any of it.
""Currently, if Spellcast were to make each sale update the station, the station would update every time someone sells. Well duh, but what does that lead to? Station update clears the station UI and reloads all the info, clearing away what item you had clicked and how far down the scrollbars you went. imagine that every six seconds. Under the when sell system, when we have a lot of people, that will really piss people off.""
Other games do this just fine, it would take a small change to what part of the UI updates graphically in the client, hardly a game breaking endeavor.
"" You guys don't understand trade as well as TGFT does. There is a LOT of stuff there. Remember, this will all change when we have a lot of people. We won't be able to depend on prices staying up for long. The future may hold small sells of 500cu over 3000. Sorry I can't really tell you all more. It's this knowledge of the current trade system that separates TGFT traders from other traders. Stockpiling is just the beginning.""
please spare us the blantant guild plug, and dont insult us or try to be condecending. I've been trading in vendetta for a long time, I can reasonably say that i understand it as well as anyone else does.
"'This also plays into a new market method some of us have been using. It's like a stock market. Some of us leave large amounts here and there and sell it all when the time is right. However, it's always possible someone else sells their stuff there before you. OUCH!""
which is all well and good, except that it still ruins the immersiveness of the game to be able to sell in that kind of bulk for top dollar.
buying in bulk results in a LOWER price per unit, not a higher one, and since the economy is supposed to be demand based, the fact that you can stockpile to get around this is a bug IMO. No matter how you slice it, stations are supposed to purchase what they need, not what you want to sell them.
""3.Make every trader in VO only able to be just as good as any other trader, even those who devote a whole guild to it.
If the dev's make the station update like so, TGFT would almost fall apart. We would have nothing to hold over anyone else. So would every other trade guild, current and future.'"
So you would place the welfare of your guild over the game as a whole?
You seem to be focused on this one little item about the refresh change. Did you pause to consider that by adding the other changes above not having the refresh change would allow for completely blatant exploits?
the change is not meant to be implimented independent of the rest of my suggestions.
If, for example, it were left as it is now, but the rest of the changes added, lets examine the following scenario:
- a trader stockpiles 3000 units each of (for example) xithricite ore and inert chemicals at a station that used those items to make X-rite Alloy.
- the trader then sells those items, waits for the next station refresh, (or leaves the station and redocks, or does an update station, whatever he needs to do to activate the price change)
- the sell value of the 2 maeterials drops to almost nothing, and the purchase price of the x-rite alloy goes to its minimum.
- the trader can then purchase a large amount (say 20,000 units) of x-rite alloy at 33% of the base cost. All he has to do then is wait for the next station update, and he can then sell it back at whatever the inflated price has become (minus the 20% drop for selling a good to the station you can buy it at)
There are only 4 ways to stop the above if both buying and selling alter the price, which is something i would prefer to see.
1- limit the quantity of goods a station produces.. in general this is probably a bad idea for vendetta due to the way our system works, but it might be doable if needed
2- make it so that stations absolutely won't re-purchase items that they sell.
3- track the purchase price of all cargo, and always sell it back for less than the amount that was paid for it if you try to sell to a station that sells that item. in general i dont object too much to this, as it would allow the addition of a 'trade log' style page that lets you see at a glance what you paid for an item.
or
4. correct the price update in stations to be more real time.
I chose #4 because i feel that the current method of station updates is highly anti-intuitive and illogical, and my post was in general about making the whole economy more intuitive.
""Currently, if Spellcast were to make each sale update the station, the station would update every time someone sells. Well duh, but what does that lead to? Station update clears the station UI and reloads all the info, clearing away what item you had clicked and how far down the scrollbars you went. imagine that every six seconds. Under the when sell system, when we have a lot of people, that will really piss people off.""
Other games do this just fine, it would take a small change to what part of the UI updates graphically in the client, hardly a game breaking endeavor.
"" You guys don't understand trade as well as TGFT does. There is a LOT of stuff there. Remember, this will all change when we have a lot of people. We won't be able to depend on prices staying up for long. The future may hold small sells of 500cu over 3000. Sorry I can't really tell you all more. It's this knowledge of the current trade system that separates TGFT traders from other traders. Stockpiling is just the beginning.""
please spare us the blantant guild plug, and dont insult us or try to be condecending. I've been trading in vendetta for a long time, I can reasonably say that i understand it as well as anyone else does.
"'This also plays into a new market method some of us have been using. It's like a stock market. Some of us leave large amounts here and there and sell it all when the time is right. However, it's always possible someone else sells their stuff there before you. OUCH!""
which is all well and good, except that it still ruins the immersiveness of the game to be able to sell in that kind of bulk for top dollar.
buying in bulk results in a LOWER price per unit, not a higher one, and since the economy is supposed to be demand based, the fact that you can stockpile to get around this is a bug IMO. No matter how you slice it, stations are supposed to purchase what they need, not what you want to sell them.
""3.Make every trader in VO only able to be just as good as any other trader, even those who devote a whole guild to it.
If the dev's make the station update like so, TGFT would almost fall apart. We would have nothing to hold over anyone else. So would every other trade guild, current and future.'"
So you would place the welfare of your guild over the game as a whole?
You seem to be focused on this one little item about the refresh change. Did you pause to consider that by adding the other changes above not having the refresh change would allow for completely blatant exploits?
the change is not meant to be implimented independent of the rest of my suggestions.
If, for example, it were left as it is now, but the rest of the changes added, lets examine the following scenario:
- a trader stockpiles 3000 units each of (for example) xithricite ore and inert chemicals at a station that used those items to make X-rite Alloy.
- the trader then sells those items, waits for the next station refresh, (or leaves the station and redocks, or does an update station, whatever he needs to do to activate the price change)
- the sell value of the 2 maeterials drops to almost nothing, and the purchase price of the x-rite alloy goes to its minimum.
- the trader can then purchase a large amount (say 20,000 units) of x-rite alloy at 33% of the base cost. All he has to do then is wait for the next station update, and he can then sell it back at whatever the inflated price has become (minus the 20% drop for selling a good to the station you can buy it at)
There are only 4 ways to stop the above if both buying and selling alter the price, which is something i would prefer to see.
1- limit the quantity of goods a station produces.. in general this is probably a bad idea for vendetta due to the way our system works, but it might be doable if needed
2- make it so that stations absolutely won't re-purchase items that they sell.
3- track the purchase price of all cargo, and always sell it back for less than the amount that was paid for it if you try to sell to a station that sells that item. in general i dont object too much to this, as it would allow the addition of a 'trade log' style page that lets you see at a glance what you paid for an item.
or
4. correct the price update in stations to be more real time.
I chose #4 because i feel that the current method of station updates is highly anti-intuitive and illogical, and my post was in general about making the whole economy more intuitive.
Well Spellcast, my response has two parts:
First, I love the tech level idea. I had posted something similar way back/sometime ago. Not with as much depth as yours though. It seems well thought out. Infact, when i first started playing, I believed the economy was set up something like that. Much to my dissmay it was not :(
Second, while you may feel that the current update time is top long, I think it is ok. First, consider that the planets in the various systems are actually inhabited to one degree or another(as stated in the background of VO.) If you believe that life only exists in the stations, I think you have missed something with the background of our little universe. Next, look at the stations as the main/only, surface to orbit interface. It is more than possible that when you show up with 10,000 gallons of milk, they will by them. Remember, traders are supplying whole planets, not just stations. Perhaps a better way to deal with that is to have some sort of anouncement at each station tell everyone how much of a certain good is requested. Then people can stockpile as they chose until the odds of selling everything get to high. Then sell all you have.
That being said, the concept about how prices fluctuate ( the 33% and 300% models) would keep some stock piling down. But as my esteemed colleage fnugget said, stock piling is how the big boys trade. Stockpiling is always a gamble. Because the entire planet concept, I do not feel that stockpiling is really an exploit. If it was i am more than certain it would have been changed by now. After all stockpilling is not a new concept.
So, to recap; I beleive most players interested in a thriving economy would find the tech level, and 33%/300% concepts to be wonderful addition. The six second clock would more than likely become a nuisance.
First, I love the tech level idea. I had posted something similar way back/sometime ago. Not with as much depth as yours though. It seems well thought out. Infact, when i first started playing, I believed the economy was set up something like that. Much to my dissmay it was not :(
Second, while you may feel that the current update time is top long, I think it is ok. First, consider that the planets in the various systems are actually inhabited to one degree or another(as stated in the background of VO.) If you believe that life only exists in the stations, I think you have missed something with the background of our little universe. Next, look at the stations as the main/only, surface to orbit interface. It is more than possible that when you show up with 10,000 gallons of milk, they will by them. Remember, traders are supplying whole planets, not just stations. Perhaps a better way to deal with that is to have some sort of anouncement at each station tell everyone how much of a certain good is requested. Then people can stockpile as they chose until the odds of selling everything get to high. Then sell all you have.
That being said, the concept about how prices fluctuate ( the 33% and 300% models) would keep some stock piling down. But as my esteemed colleage fnugget said, stock piling is how the big boys trade. Stockpiling is always a gamble. Because the entire planet concept, I do not feel that stockpiling is really an exploit. If it was i am more than certain it would have been changed by now. After all stockpilling is not a new concept.
So, to recap; I beleive most players interested in a thriving economy would find the tech level, and 33%/300% concepts to be wonderful addition. The six second clock would more than likely become a nuisance.
fireice, you are also missing the point.. i'm not talking about 10,000 gallons of milk to a station, i'm talking about 10,000 gallons of milk to a corner grocery store. Stations would not purchase more of an item at top dollar than they had a need for. its simple supply and demand, and its illogical at present.
Whatever amount of items is needed to effect a demand change is a variable that the developers control. At present it is set quite low (under 20 units of cargo) because we have very few players on at any given time.
To an extent the problem would solve itself if the economy were to remain absolutely the same. as we got more players, 1000 units would become a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of cargo needed to effect a demand change, however as i posted in my reply to fnugget while you were posting, not making the change would open up potential exploits in the buying side of the dynamic change.
Whatever amount of items is needed to effect a demand change is a variable that the developers control. At present it is set quite low (under 20 units of cargo) because we have very few players on at any given time.
To an extent the problem would solve itself if the economy were to remain absolutely the same. as we got more players, 1000 units would become a drop in the bucket compared to the amount of cargo needed to effect a demand change, however as i posted in my reply to fnugget while you were posting, not making the change would open up potential exploits in the buying side of the dynamic change.
No I did not miss the point. I just feel that you are thinking to small. We are supplying entire planets, not stations. I also understand that with more player an adjustment is required. I don't know, but that may already be built into the basic framework for the program.
I like the ideas you presented. But a six second clock, as it stands now, is just to short.
I like the ideas you presented. But a six second clock, as it stands now, is just to short.
I really don't care how much somebody can sell in 6 seconds... Or if people can stockpile and crash the price or sell more then what is intended.
Besides what was intended? For all we know the 300000 stockpiled orewidgets were exactly what the station needed.
Maybe it would be easier to actually have a number behind the tradegood stating once that number is delivered (by you) then the price will be updated to reflect the stations lack of demand.
Heck same could be used for supply...
Besides what was intended? For all we know the 300000 stockpiled orewidgets were exactly what the station needed.
Maybe it would be easier to actually have a number behind the tradegood stating once that number is delivered (by you) then the price will be updated to reflect the stations lack of demand.
Heck same could be used for supply...
yes Rip, I mentioned something like that in my first post. I think that may be a good idea.
I agree with Spellcast for everything in this thread.
The stations should reevaluate their demand & adjust their prices after every purchase. Actually, I wouldn't even say have a 6 second timer, I'd say have it do it after every transaction. So you could sell 120 units all for the same price, but it should immediately take that into account for the station's demand for that good.
And actually, why is the cap for the maximum # of units to sell at once 120? It used to be 100, but was raised to 120 to match the cargo capacity of the Behemoth. I don't really understand the reason it needs to match the Moth's capacity though. I'd say change it back to 100.
Now, this of course would make it much more difficult for traders to make as much money as they do today. But the way it is now just doesn't make any sense. Here's what I'd suggest as better ways of letting traders make large profits: remove the caps for the prices, so that the higher the demand a station has for a certain item, the higher they should be willing to pay for it. This means that if a station has an average demand for Heliocene, but an extremely high demand for Ferric ore, then that station should pay more for Ferric than Heliocene. Also, make the demand (and price) for a trade good increase faster. That would make it so the price would increase faster, and to higher levels, than it does now. And as the demand goes up, the number of units required to decrease the price should also go up - if a station has a demand of X for a certain good, and another station has 2X the demand for the same good, then selling the same amount of goods to both stations, should have less of an effect on the price at the station that had twice the demand.
The stations should reevaluate their demand & adjust their prices after every purchase. Actually, I wouldn't even say have a 6 second timer, I'd say have it do it after every transaction. So you could sell 120 units all for the same price, but it should immediately take that into account for the station's demand for that good.
And actually, why is the cap for the maximum # of units to sell at once 120? It used to be 100, but was raised to 120 to match the cargo capacity of the Behemoth. I don't really understand the reason it needs to match the Moth's capacity though. I'd say change it back to 100.
Now, this of course would make it much more difficult for traders to make as much money as they do today. But the way it is now just doesn't make any sense. Here's what I'd suggest as better ways of letting traders make large profits: remove the caps for the prices, so that the higher the demand a station has for a certain item, the higher they should be willing to pay for it. This means that if a station has an average demand for Heliocene, but an extremely high demand for Ferric ore, then that station should pay more for Ferric than Heliocene. Also, make the demand (and price) for a trade good increase faster. That would make it so the price would increase faster, and to higher levels, than it does now. And as the demand goes up, the number of units required to decrease the price should also go up - if a station has a demand of X for a certain good, and another station has 2X the demand for the same good, then selling the same amount of goods to both stations, should have less of an effect on the price at the station that had twice the demand.