**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Apr 12 16:25:46 2005

Apr 12 16:25:46 --> You are now talking on #vendetta
Apr 12 16:25:46 --- Topic for #vendetta is http://www.vendetta-online.com
Apr 12 16:25:46 --- Topic for #vendetta set by Incarnate at Tue Mar 29 14:04:03 2005
Apr 12 16:25:47 --- ChanServ gives voice to Roguelazer
Apr 12 16:25:47 <Cam> the only true way to get balance is to have specific weapons for each ship model
Apr 12 16:25:53 <Lemming> what's happened that caused all these discussions about vendetta
Apr 12 16:25:55 * Roguelazer starts randomly swearing
Apr 12 16:25:58 <Lemming> i haven't seen them for like a year
Apr 12 16:26:01 <Alamar> I really don't agree Cam.
Apr 12 16:26:24 <Alamar> it'll make things less flexible, and less flexible will often lead to min / maxing to an even greater extent.
Apr 12 16:26:26 <Asp> Lemming: I think the Sedina thing got people back into combat.. which reminded them why they like VO..
Apr 12 16:26:37 <Roguelazer> My cart at the Apple Store is currently holding $584 worth of merchandise, and I have barely enough money to cover it... If I spend it, I'll never afford the car insurance... But... So tempting...
Apr 12 16:26:39 <Cam> i don't think so alamar
Apr 12 16:26:51 <Alamar> Cam, I do. :p
Apr 12 16:26:54 <Lemming> rogue: do enlighten us about its contents
Apr 12 16:26:59 <Cam> think of it this way, the rev c/IBG are the best fighters right now
Apr 12 16:27:04 <Cam> we can agree on that
Apr 12 16:27:08 <Lemming> i do hape it has a $129 item
Apr 12 16:27:10 <Lemming> *hope
Apr 12 16:27:10 <Alamar> no, the Prom is.
Apr 12 16:27:17 <Cam> the prom is not a fighter
Apr 12 16:27:20 <Cam> it's a bomber
Apr 12 16:27:20 <Lemming> the prom should NOT be a fighter
Apr 12 16:27:24 <Roguelazer> Mac OS X v10.4 "Tiger", iLife '05, .Mac - Retail Box, AirPort Extreme Card, iSight
Apr 12 16:27:27 <Alamar> it moves faster than a loaded Vult or Valk, I call it a fighter.
Apr 12 16:27:28 <Lemming> sadly, it is pretty good at fighting fighters
Apr 12 16:27:29 <-- alienb has quit (Ping timeout)
Apr 12 16:27:36 <Asp> If not a yes/no situation.. a medium and/or equipment port..
Apr 12 16:27:39 <evoli> Lemming, what's the prom for again?
Apr 12 16:27:43 <Cam> the corvus/serco vultures are second to the cents, and then comes the valk
Apr 12 16:27:49 * Lemming checks
Apr 12 16:27:53 <Roguelazer> The Valk does pretty well in the hands of a good pilot.
Apr 12 16:28:03 <Roguelazer> You just need to realize that maneuverablity is important, but it isn't everything.
Apr 12 16:28:05 <Cam> not as well as a cent in the same hands would do
Apr 12 16:28:06 <Asp> The prom is supposed to be a big heavy battle wagon
Apr 12 16:28:16 <evoli> Lemming: I always thought the prom would be a nice defense ship. like park it in a sector, and it can fight
Apr 12 16:28:17 <Alamar> heh, I took Nerdes Rev C to 20% (we went to 20) in my tri-rail Valk. I was at 80%.
Apr 12 16:28:26 <Roguelazer> Cam: It's entirely possible for somebody to be able to fly a valk better than a centurion.
Apr 12 16:28:26 <evoli> Lemming: the corvus vult is a good defense ship... it can't chase anyone though
Apr 12 16:28:31 <Cam> nerde's not that good alamar
Apr 12 16:28:32 <Alamar> I do, for one thing.
Apr 12 16:28:35 <Lemming> "Prometheus Bomber/Transport Ship Class"
Apr 12 16:28:36 <Roguelazer> I can't fly lights at all for shit.
Apr 12 16:28:37 <Alamar> I know Nerde is not that good.
Apr 12 16:28:43 <Roguelazer> Although I've done well with heavies.
Apr 12 16:29:03 <Roguelazer> My Wraith of DOOM was doing pretty well until that uber-atlas came along and blasted it.
Apr 12 16:29:05 <Alamar> I fly Valks a lot better than Rev Cs, mostly due to weapon choice.
Apr 12 16:29:06 <Cam> listen... my point is, there's a reason we see huge amounts of proms, and rev cs
Apr 12 16:29:16 <Roguelazer> I mighta won, except I refuse to use an AGT. It would dirty me.
Apr 12 16:29:20 <Lemming> i'd like to see the prom drop all of its small ports, in favor of 2 more large ports
Apr 12 16:29:26 <Lemming> and balancing of large port weapons
Apr 12 16:29:28 <Alamar> yes, it's because they're the fastest thing there is.
Apr 12 16:29:32 <Asp> Alamar: The Valk keeps the rails a bit steadier?
Apr 12 16:29:35 <Lemming> like a dump in the mass of AGT
Apr 12 16:29:46 <Lemming> *dump
Apr 12 16:29:47 <Roguelazer> By dump you hopefulluy mean jump
Apr 12 16:29:48 <evoli> Lemming: hehe.
Apr 12 16:29:50 <Cam> now if we could give specific variants of weapons to say a warthog to make it comparable to a centurion, that would be balance
Apr 12 16:29:50 <Lemming> *bump
Apr 12 16:30:02 <Cam> it would be a different style of fighting but the pilots would be even
Apr 12 16:30:03 <evoli> Lemming: that'd be a little scary. it'd be worse than the rocket rag
Apr 12 16:30:08 <Alamar> Asp, yes, higher / worse mass / spin torque means that the aim doesn't jump as fast around.
Apr 12 16:30:10 <Asp> Actually, no, that can't be it.. makes no sense. It's because you like to keep your distance.
Apr 12 16:30:14 <evoli> Lemming: I just found that the rocket rag has more agility than my rocket Maud :)
Apr 12 16:30:16 <Lemming> i want the promy to be a bomber
Apr 12 16:30:22 <Roguelazer> My biggest complaint is that Warthogs and Wraiths are outperformed by Proms and Atlases.
Apr 12 16:30:23 <Asp> ah ok
Apr 12 16:30:43 <Lemming> the light variant of the rag is as heavy as the armored variant
Apr 12 16:30:45 <Alamar> Roguelazer, the SCP outperformes Valks and Vults when they're loaded.
Apr 12 16:30:45 <Roguelazer> Why are the medium fighter and light bomber being outperformed by the heavy bomber and trade ship?
Apr 12 16:30:58 <Cam> the scp is completely unbalanced
Apr 12 16:30:59 <Roguelazer> Alamar, I'm just talking about run-of-the mill Mark I Prometheuses.
Apr 12 16:31:06 <Roguelazer> SCP can go fuck itself for now.
Apr 12 16:31:08 <Alamar> even that one is bad.
Apr 12 16:31:08 <Lemming> the problem is that proms and atlases aren't specialized
Apr 12 16:31:21 <Alamar> Roguelazer, did you see my database-webby-thing?
Apr 12 16:31:30 <Roguelazer> Atlases should get the same treatment that the Mineral Maurauder got.
Apr 12 16:31:38 <Alamar> yeah
Apr 12 16:31:39 <Lemming> the prom needs to be more bombing enhanced, and the atlas should lose its small port and spin torque
Apr 12 16:31:40 <Roguelazer> Low thrust, low spin torque, low speed, high turbo thrust.
Apr 12 16:31:41 <Cam> i'm telling you balance would be so much easier with ship specific weapon variants
Apr 12 16:31:48 <Roguelazer> Cam, that'd be dumb.
Apr 12 16:31:59 <Alamar> and boring.
Apr 12 16:32:00 <Cam> why would it be dumb?
Apr 12 16:32:03 <Cam> or boring?
Apr 12 16:32:04 <Roguelazer> I wouldn't find it fun if every ship had its own weapons variants.
Apr 12 16:32:07 <Roguelazer> It's limiting.
Apr 12 16:32:13 <Cam> no it's not
Apr 12 16:32:21 <Cam> you have the standard weapons we have now
Apr 12 16:32:25 <Roguelazer> And it means that if they change the balance of one weapon, they need to go alter 75 weapons for all the other ship types.
Apr 12 16:32:29 <Alamar> it means "you fly a Valk, you have these layouts".
Apr 12 16:32:31 <Roguelazer> And to add a weapon? Sheesh, that'd be bad.,
Apr 12 16:32:34 <Alamar> Cam, who'd get my rails?
Apr 12 16:32:42 <Asp> I wouldn't support variants for each, no way..
Apr 12 16:32:44 <Cam> but add in a special neutron or whatever for the warthog that makes it able to fight cents
Apr 12 16:32:55 <Roguelazer> besides, this is a skill game.
Apr 12 16:33:00 <Cam> yes
Apr 12 16:33:05 <Roguelazer> Balancing is one thing, but a special Warthog vs Centurion weapon?
Apr 12 16:33:10 <Roguelazer> That's a little overspecific.
Apr 12 16:33:18 <Cam> no it balances the ships easier
Apr 12 16:33:18 <Roguelazer> I think we should fix the ships before we worry about the weapons.
Apr 12 16:33:19 <Alamar> right now, the Hog would need a neut III with proxy and no drain and good autoaim to fight cents.
Apr 12 16:33:23 <Asp> I just said a yes/no for each weapon for each ship.. so, for instance, no L-mines on fighters..
Apr 12 16:33:33 <Roguelazer> The fact of the matter is that an EMPTY atlas can outmaneuver both an empty Warthog and an empty Wraith.
Apr 12 16:33:38 <Alamar> okay, another issue, if the Hog can kill a cent with ease, what threat would a Valk or a Maud be?
Apr 12 16:33:39 <Roguelazer> It shouldn't be able to do either.
Apr 12 16:33:53 <Cam> i'm not saying it should be easy
Apr 12 16:33:57 <Cam> i'm saying it should even it out
Apr 12 16:34:05 <Roguelazer> The Warthog should be a terrifying fighter like it used to be... not uber, but not its current state of useless.
Apr 12 16:34:13 <Roguelazer> The Atlas should go back to its position as a low-level tradeship.
Apr 12 16:34:24 <Alamar> the Warthog should be peoples generic all-purpose fighter.
Apr 12 16:34:25 <Roguelazer> And the Wraith should be the light bomber that I've always wanted it to be.
Apr 12 16:34:38 <Alamar> if you're not sure what you face, you fly a Hog.
Apr 12 16:34:43 <Roguelazer> Yes Alamar. Not too maneuverable, not too heavily armored, not too powerful. Just... there.
Apr 12 16:34:49 <Alamar> yup
Apr 12 16:34:51 <Cam> my whole thing with balance is that any ship should be able to fight any other ship
Apr 12 16:34:52 <Asp> That kinda makes sense. Or at least a portion of your fleet flies 'em..
Apr 12 16:34:57 <Roguelazer> No Cam. That's wrong.
Apr 12 16:34:58 <Alamar> the problem today is that everything relates to agility.
Apr 12 16:35:02 <Roguelazer> A bomber should not fight a fighter and win.
Apr 12 16:35:04 <evoli> Roguelazer, I fly the hog...
Apr 12 16:35:07 <evoli> I've wasted many...
Apr 12 16:35:12 <evoli> but wait
Apr 12 16:35:13 <evoli> oops
Apr 12 16:35:16 <Roguelazer> Every ship should NOT beat every other ship.
Apr 12 16:35:17 <Cam> rogue, 1 pilot vs 1 pilot should be fair odds
Apr 12 16:35:19 <evoli> I'm doing the big mistake: using personal anecdotes
Apr 12 16:35:22 <Roguelazer> No Cam.
Apr 12 16:35:27 <Cam> everyone has different styles
Apr 12 16:35:27 <Alamar> Cam, it shouldn't.
Apr 12 16:35:35 <Roguelazer> A tradeship should not be able to beat an ubermaneuverable fighter just in the interests of "balance"
Apr 12 16:35:36 <Cam> they would pick the ship best suited
Apr 12 16:35:37 <evoli> Cam: naw, I don't think so. it's not all about Single Player duels
Apr 12 16:35:45 <Asp> Well, the problem is also that some ships _should_ be kinda crumby in pvp because they're meant for attacking cap ships or yadda yadda. Some of the ship's roles aren't really in the game yet.
Apr 12 16:35:52 <Cam> trade ships are a seperate category
Apr 12 16:35:54 <Roguelazer> Likewise, a fighter should not be able to carry a heavy load of xith.
Apr 12 16:36:04 <Roguelazer> Cam: An atlas is a tradeship. It beats fighters. That's where my main problem is.
Apr 12 16:36:05 <evoli> I would think a bomber can't be killed by one zippy light ship, but it can't chase down a light ship and kill it either
Apr 12 16:36:10 <Cam> you can have different categories quite easily
Apr 12 16:36:12 <Alamar> seriously, I say again, the problem today is that very little apart from agility matters.
Apr 12 16:36:13 <Roguelazer> A bomber should be heavily armored and slow.
Apr 12 16:36:16 <Alamar> the exception is the MGC.
Apr 12 16:36:27 <Roguelazer> Ships need defined roles.
Apr 12 16:36:31 <Alamar> yeah.
Apr 12 16:36:36 <Cam> you guys need to slow down and listen
Apr 12 16:36:38 <Roguelazer> They should not all just be equal to each other.
Apr 12 16:36:39 <Lemming> the prom right now is a great anti fighter ship
Apr 12 16:36:42 <Roguelazer> Otherwise we'd be right back at 3.1
Apr 12 16:36:45 <Lemming> and well, horrible at bombing
Apr 12 16:36:47 <evoli> Roguelazer, I agree. heavily armored, and not be able to turbo and be aggressive, but very very hard to kill when it is defensive
Apr 12 16:37:04 <Alamar> the prom right now is great at anything.
Apr 12 16:37:10 <Roguelazer> A bomber should be for bombing, a fighter for fighting other fighters, and a transport for transporting stuff.
Apr 12 16:37:19 <Alamar> heck, the MkII is a decent fighter, and it has 40cus of storage.
Apr 12 16:37:27 <Lemming> not bombing, it is easly out classed by the rag for bombing
Apr 12 16:37:28 <Roguelazer> Some overlap (Like the Axia Guardian Wraith) is allowed.
Apr 12 16:37:40 <Roguelazer> But things like an Uberatlas or a CTC-maven Centurion?
Apr 12 16:37:43 <Roguelazer> That's just f-ed up?
Apr 12 16:37:48 <Roguelazer> s/?/!
Apr 12 16:37:59 <evoli> Alamar: hehe, I think the prom is now what the Maud used to be
Apr 12 16:38:02 <Alamar> Lemming, yeah, but the Rag can die while bombing. you rather pick the SCP since you drop your flares and then just stick around to AGT people to death.
Apr 12 16:38:17 <evoli> Alamar: :) Maud used to be good at Fighting, Transport, and well, bombing with 3 ports
Apr 12 16:38:19 <Miharu> mmmm food
Apr 12 16:38:21 <Lemming> but, a bomber shouldn't be a fighter!
Apr 12 16:38:34 <Lemming> it should be solely for bombing, come in, unload, and leave
Apr 12 16:38:34 <evoli> Lemming: so a bomber works on the defense?
Apr 12 16:38:45 <Roguelazer> BTW, I think I'm dropping the iSight.
Apr 12 16:38:51 <Lemming> right now i'm thinking bomber as offense
Apr 12 16:38:52 <evoli> Lemming: that's a boring role
Apr 12 16:38:59 <evoli> Lemming: oh. so it has to be fast enough to get there
Apr 12 16:39:00 <Roguelazer> A bomber should bomb stuff.
Apr 12 16:39:01 <Lemming> it's what a bomber does
Apr 12 16:39:06 <Roguelazer> There should be different bombers.
Apr 12 16:39:11 <evoli> Lemming: so do you think the MGC is a good bomber?
Apr 12 16:39:15 <Lemming> MGC?
Apr 12 16:39:18 <Asp> It should launch avalon torpedoes at capital ships is what it should do..
Apr 12 16:39:19 * Miharu munches on an olive-flavored evoli-cookie.
Apr 12 16:39:22 * Lemming is so not up on the current lingo.
Apr 12 16:39:25 <Roguelazer> A dive-bomber should fast, nonmaneuverable and lightly armored.
Apr 12 16:39:25 <evoli> Lemming: 3-flare Screamer Jack RAG
Apr 12 16:39:35 <Roguelazer> IE: No turning torque, but massive turbo thrust.
Apr 12 16:39:37 <Miharu> Lemming: Mobile Goliath Cannon
Apr 12 16:39:42 <Miharu> horrible name if you ask me
Apr 12 16:39:43 <Asp> And it should be a bad fighter, but not totally inept.. just rather bad.. that way the bomber can kind of try to contribute in the fray.. sorta..
Apr 12 16:39:50 <Lemming> i prefer flare x 3 jack x2
Apr 12 16:39:57 <Alamar> Roguelazer, look at this: Long link removed because it's annoying. Look at http://tinyurl.com/5pr33 instead, since it's the same thing.
Apr 12 16:40:01 <Roguelazer> A heavy bomber should be slow and heavily armoed, but able to delived a huge load on stationaryish targets
Apr 12 16:40:06 <Asp> Rogue: Well.. the "dive bomber" would be the warthog with avalons in the L turret
Apr 12 16:40:23 <Roguelazer> A proper dive bomber wouldn't be anything like a warthog
Apr 12 16:40:26 <Lemming> what i do is grab a FC battery, turbo at mr cap ship, and hold down fire
Apr 12 16:40:29 <Roguelazer> A warthog is maneuverable.
Apr 12 16:40:29 <Asp> That's a little too WW2 for me..
Apr 12 16:40:38 <Lemming> a warthog is a good ship for anti fighter
Apr 12 16:40:48 <Roguelazer> A warthog is a heavish fighter, not a bomber.
Apr 12 16:40:57 <Roguelazer> The Wraith should be more like a dive bomber
Apr 12 16:40:59 <Miharu> evoli, you make a good olive cookie!
Apr 12 16:41:06 <Miharu> *munchmunch*
Apr 12 16:41:09 <Asp> It's an attack ship.
Apr 12 16:41:13 <Alamar> Roguelazer, how scary is that URL?
Apr 12 16:41:14 <Miharu> ^o^
Apr 12 16:41:16 <Miharu> ^.^
Apr 12 16:41:17 <Asp> I see attack ships as being in between fighters and bombers.
Apr 12 16:41:21 <evoli> Lemming: that too. but that's a nice bomber, isn't it?
Apr 12 16:41:37 <Lemming> evoli, the rag i described?
Apr 12 16:41:40 <Roguelazer> I think a new Corvette class like in Homeworld would alleviate many of our complaints.
Apr 12 16:41:40 <Miharu> Alamar: scarier than necessary
Apr 12 16:41:40 <evoli> Lemming: yea
Apr 12 16:41:49 <Roguelazer> Two-player, medium speed, heavish armor, expensive.
Apr 12 16:41:50 <Miharu> make it a java thing!
Apr 12 16:41:57 <Lemming> i love it, jackhammers don't drain energy so i can fire while turboing
Apr 12 16:41:58 <evoli> Lemming: it's also rather wicked :) right now
Apr 12 16:42:07 <evoli> Lemming: true
Apr 12 16:42:20 <evoli> Lemming: but it doesn't turbo fast, so small ships can always be out of its reach
Apr 12 16:42:23 <Roguelazer> Alamar: Try http://tinyurl.com/5pr33
Apr 12 16:42:26 <Cam> you're all crazy
Apr 12 16:42:43 <Roguelazer> Cam, you want 3.1, basically.
Apr 12 16:42:50 <Alamar> even the Prom MKIII with flares + AGT has a better mass / thrust than any Vult with flares or a valk with two flares and a neut.
Apr 12 16:42:52 <evoli> Lemming: someone like Eldrad will be skillful enough that the rocketrag is nothing...
Apr 12 16:42:53 <Roguelazer> I dunno about you, but I'm glad to be out of 3.1.x era.
Apr 12 16:42:56 <Alamar> I don't use tinyurl.
Apr 12 16:42:56 <Lemming> evoli, you bomb buildings, not cars
Apr 12 16:42:58 <Cam> i'm not even sure if i was here in 3.1
Apr 12 16:43:10 <evoli> Lemming: right. so buildings would be like the frig
Apr 12 16:43:18 <evoli> Lemming: so you would like the prom to act like the MGC rag?
Apr 12 16:43:20 <Lemming> and other similar class ships
Apr 12 16:43:22 <Asp> Right. Remember, these aren't so much bombers as torpedo bombers..
Apr 12 16:43:25 <Roguelazer> Basically, every ship could take out every other ship.
Apr 12 16:43:28 <evoli> Lemming: I think that wouldn't be too bad :)
Apr 12 16:43:32 <Roguelazer> Booooooooring.
Apr 12 16:43:32 <Cam> i want the valk/vult/cent to be pretty much even but suit slightly different styles of fighting
Apr 12 16:43:38 <Lemming> i'd just like the prom, a bomber, be a better bomber than a non-special ship
Apr 12 16:43:40 <Alamar> I'd like to see that too.
Apr 12 16:43:40 <evoli> Cam: that's doable...
Apr 12 16:43:42 <Cam> how is that boring?
Apr 12 16:43:44 <Cam> it's fair
Apr 12 16:43:46 <Roguelazer> Those should be, because they're almost the same ship.
Apr 12 16:43:48 <Alamar> it doesn't require special weapons.
Apr 12 16:43:52 <Asp> Cam: You're not seeing into the future..
Apr 12 16:44:00 <evoli> Cam: you can probably do that for different classes of ships. like light vs light is fair
Apr 12 16:44:04 <Asp> Cam: Some ships should get their ass kicked because they're not superiority fighters.
Apr 12 16:44:05 <Roguelazer> It's things like making the Valk and the Warthog level-field that big me off.
Apr 12 16:44:09 <evoli> Cam: but light vs. heavy in some situations wouldn't work, that is
Apr 12 16:44:12 <Cam> i shouldn't have to run from a fight because of what ship my opponent has
Apr 12 16:44:16 <Roguelazer> light v light should be fine.
Apr 12 16:44:19 <Asp> Cam: Like rags.. rags should be for assaulting cap ships and stations with avalons.
Apr 12 16:44:29 <Alamar> yup
Apr 12 16:44:29 <Cam> yes asp
Apr 12 16:44:30 <Roguelazer> But if you take an Atlas into a fight, you should be expecting to have your ass handed to you on a silver platter.
Apr 12 16:44:31 <Cam> i agree
Apr 12 16:44:35 <evoli> Cam: a heavy that is about to die shouldn't be able to run from a light. a light can run from a heavy, right?
Apr 12 16:44:41 <Cam> but a valk vs prom should be a fair fight too
Apr 12 16:44:46 <Cam> there should be some cross over
Apr 12 16:44:53 <Alamar> no, different roles.
Apr 12 16:45:01 <Alamar> Prom is a bomber, Valk is a fighers.
Apr 12 16:45:01 <Roguelazer> Capital Ship <- Bomber <- Fighter -> Tradeship
Apr 12 16:45:03 <evoli> Cam: 2 heavies couldn't kill a light even if they wanted to, the light could dodge or get away.
Apr 12 16:45:13 <Roguelazer> With -> equaling "kills"
Apr 12 16:45:16 <Alamar> unless you fsck up once.
Apr 12 16:45:19 <evoli> Cam: to have some cross over, the prom would have to have some semblance of a fighter
Apr 12 16:45:31 <evoli> Cam: and that, for some people, would make it not as fitting for its role
Apr 12 16:45:31 <Asp> Actually that's one of the biggest problems.. people have a hard time determining just what the heck the prom is.
Apr 12 16:45:36 <Cam> no, it just has to have enough armor to match it
Apr 12 16:45:37 <Alamar> the problem is that to fight lights, you need thrust.
Apr 12 16:45:43 <Lemming> we need people to fly in groups, a couple people with AGT, a couple fighters, and a bomber
Apr 12 16:46:02 <Alamar> no, armor means very little. agility is worth infinatly more than armor.
Apr 12 16:46:09 <evoli> Cam: armor isn't as important as agility, in the long run, if you are using energy, is it?
Apr 12 16:46:15 <Roguelazer> You're close Lemming.
Apr 12 16:46:19 <Roguelazer> My goal is to encourage groups.
Apr 12 16:46:19 <Cam> guys slow down!
Apr 12 16:46:25 <Lemming> i don't think 1vs1 should be taken into account for balance
Apr 12 16:46:27 <Cam> jesus everyone is jumping on me
Apr 12 16:46:31 <Lemming> unless it is for similar ships
Apr 12 16:46:33 <Roguelazer> So a bomber might be after a frigate, but since it's USELESS against fighters, it would need escorts.
Apr 12 16:46:38 <Cam> why should a valk over run a prom?
Apr 12 16:46:40 <evoli> Roguelazer, right, if people could always hold their own, then they wouldn't need to fight in groups
Apr 12 16:46:44 <Roguelazer> If a bomber can take out fighters, then the escorts aren't needed.
Apr 12 16:46:48 <Roguelazer> Therefore, it should't.
Apr 12 16:47:09 <Asp> Roguelazer: I don't know about useless.. I think they should just be really bad against fighters, not truly useless.
Apr 12 16:47:11 <Lemming> cam: the valk should accel MUCH faster than a prom, but in the long run a prom should turbo faster than a valk
Apr 12 16:47:33 <Cam> i'm not talking about accel, agility or anything else
Apr 12 16:47:36 <Alamar> and, if a bomber has the agility to fight something that can fight a rev c, we have the SCP.
Apr 12 16:47:38 <Cam> the overall package
Apr 12 16:47:39 <Roguelazer> Asp: As in the odds of two equal skill pilots, one in a bomber and one in a light, with the bomber winning, are ~nil
Apr 12 16:47:58 <Lemming> the valk should be good against the prom, but not the other way around
Apr 12 16:48:03 <Roguelazer> The bomber should have ALMOST NO CHANCE against the lights. And the tradeships should have NO CHANCE AT ALL against them.
Apr 12 16:48:05 <Cam> they should be even
Apr 12 16:48:09 <Lemming> no
Apr 12 16:48:11 <Roguelazer> No.
Apr 12 16:48:13 <Cam> why not?
Apr 12 16:48:13 <Alamar> no, they shouldn't.
Apr 12 16:48:14 <Lemming> the prom is for bombing
Apr 12 16:48:18 <Roguelazer> The Prom is not a fighter.
Apr 12 16:48:20 <Alamar> because the prom is a bomber.
Apr 12 16:48:21 <Miharu> and transport
Apr 12 16:48:22 <evoli> Roguelazer, I think a bomber and a fighter, if either doesn't want to be killed, won't be killed
Apr 12 16:48:22 <Lemming> a valk is not something big enough to be bombed
Apr 12 16:48:22 <Cam> the prom is an advanced ship
Apr 12 16:48:31 <-- mr_spuck has quit (Ping timeout)
Apr 12 16:48:33 <Lemming> an advanced bomber/transport
Apr 12 16:48:33 <Roguelazer> evoli: Nope. That would ruin the teamwork scenario
Apr 12 16:48:39 <Lemming> the valk is an advanced fighter
Apr 12 16:48:46 --> mr_spuck (~mr_spuck@cloak-1ABC40A.dip.t-dialin.net) has joined #vendetta
Apr 12 16:48:49 <Roguelazer> Cam: it should pwn cap ships better than any other bomber, then.
Apr 12 16:48:50 <evoli> Roguelazer: but they can thwart each other
Apr 12 16:48:51 <Cam> i don't see why they couldn't be even
Apr 12 16:49:05 <Alamar> Cam, try to balance a bomber with a light fighter.
Apr 12 16:49:08 <Lemming> they can be, but they shouldn't
Apr 12 16:49:12 <Roguelazer> Advanced ships should be advanced in their own role, not Masteroftheuniverse advanced pwnage.
Apr 12 16:49:20 <Alamar> if it can bomb, _and_ fight light fighters, why fly anything else?
Apr 12 16:49:22 <Cam> but it wouldn't be
Apr 12 16:49:25 <evoli> Roguelazer: if a light fighter is attacking something, and a prom is guarding it, the light fighter should try to get around the guard and assault
Apr 12 16:49:38 <Cam> man you guys just don't get it
Apr 12 16:49:43 <Roguelazer> We get it. You don't
Apr 12 16:49:54 <Roguelazer> You want an advanced fighter to be able to be killed by an advanced bomber.
Apr 12 16:49:57 <Cam> i get it fine, you don't understand the concept of my thinking
Apr 12 16:50:01 <Lemming> a stealth bomber airplane is good for air-ground, but not air-air, a stealth fighter is good for air-air but not air-ground
Apr 12 16:50:04 <alienc> ........
Apr 12 16:50:12 <alienc> NONE of you morons understand proper ship classing :P
Apr 12 16:50:21 <alienc> Vendetta doesnt have enough variables
Apr 12 16:50:22 <Alamar> Cam, sould a prom be able to stand toe to toe with a Valk?
Apr 12 16:50:23 <evoli> alienc, don't make it worse please :)
Apr 12 16:50:32 <Alamar> in a one-vs-one fight?
Apr 12 16:50:40 <Cam> what do you mean toe to toe?
Apr 12 16:50:57 <Cam> it should be an even fight assuming both pilots are equally skilled with their respected ships
Apr 12 16:51:02 <Roguelazer> No, it shouldn't.
Apr 12 16:51:09 <Alamar> this is where we disagree.
Apr 12 16:51:12 <evoli> Cam: I think it is mildly possible, but very hard
Apr 12 16:51:13 <alienc> Alamar...no
Apr 12 16:51:15 <alienc> erm
Apr 12 16:51:18 <alienc> cam: no
Apr 12 16:51:20 <Cam> why should any one ship be better than the other?
Apr 12 16:51:21 <alienc> it shouldnt
Apr 12 16:51:22 <Alamar> I don't even think it's possible.
Apr 12 16:51:24 <alienc> Cam..uh..
Apr 12 16:51:25 <Lemming> it's like saying a bus should be an equal fight for a cap ship
Apr 12 16:51:25 <Roguelazer> Cam, not better.
Apr 12 16:51:32 <Alamar> you will create the SCP when you do that.
Apr 12 16:51:33 <Roguelazer> The fighter shouldn't do SHIT against a frigate.
Apr 12 16:51:42 <Cam> no lemming, because a cap ship has multiple players in it
Apr 12 16:51:51 <Cam> it should take 21 fighters to take out a cap ship
Apr 12 16:51:52 <evoli> Cam: maybe we want a Rock Paper Scissors thing
Apr 12 16:52:04 <Alamar> Roguelazer, yeah, I'd love to see something like the frig only taking damage from weapons doing >1000 per shot or so.
Apr 12 16:52:08 <Cam> assuming all 42 pilots are equally skilled
Apr 12 16:52:10 <evoli> a "balance of power"
Apr 12 16:52:13 <Lemming> fighters should only be able to scratch the cap ship
Apr 12 16:52:15 <Roguelazer> So the fighter has its role. And when the Frigate Assault Force comes rolling in, the fighters' jobs will be to escort the bombers.
Apr 12 16:52:29 <Lemming> as the armor on it is far to advanced for the less advanced weapons
Apr 12 16:52:31 <Roguelazer> So neither the SCP or the Valk would be "better"
Apr 12 16:52:32 <evoli> I like the balance idea...
Apr 12 16:52:34 <Roguelazer> They'd just be different.
Apr 12 16:52:53 <Alamar> they'd have different purposes, but if you want one-versus-one combat, the Prom shouldn't be it.
Apr 12 16:52:55 <Roguelazer> The SCP would be better than the Wraith, and the Valk better than the Vulture (only slightly, though)
Apr 12 16:52:57 <Lemming> a slow stream of water can make a dent in a rock, adventually, but will do lots of damage to a paper towel
Apr 12 16:53:00 <Cam> you're saying that in a fight the valk would be better rogue
Apr 12 16:53:06 <Cam> you're contradicting yourself
Apr 12 16:53:09 <Roguelazer> In a fight with a valk vs a prom, yes.
Apr 12 16:53:15 <Roguelazer> But in the larger scale of the universe?
Apr 12 16:53:16 <Roguelazer> Neither!
Apr 12 16:53:27 * evoli thinks a bit
Apr 12 16:53:35 <Alamar> admittadly, with todays one-vs-one centric universe, the Valk would be better for most people.
Apr 12 16:53:37 <Miharu> you are all making my brain hurt more than necessary
Apr 12 16:53:41 <Cam> i don't think 1 person should require 2 pilots to take them out
Apr 12 16:53:50 <evoli> question: an issue we might have to deal with, is that many pilots value personal combat, 1 vs 1, more than any aspect of the game.
Apr 12 16:53:51 <Roguelazer> We can't focus on a 1v1 universe! This is a MMORPG for god's sake!
Apr 12 16:53:59 <Lemming> when in a frig scenario, bombers are sent to take out the cap ship, fighters are sent to take out bombers, and fighters are sent to take out fighters
Apr 12 16:54:00 <evoli> these people will have to go Itani to get the best fighter.
Apr 12 16:54:04 <Alamar> cam, not if you have the right ship, I agree.
Apr 12 16:54:19 <Roguelazer> You all complain about low active player counts, then suggest more things that would limit group combat!
Apr 12 16:54:21 <evoli> sure, some people might say "wow serco has the best bomber, I want to attack the frig with escorts"
Apr 12 16:54:29 <Lemming> making bombers and fighters equal completely removes fighters from use
Apr 12 16:54:31 <Roguelazer> If every ship was equal at fighting every other ship, what would be the point of groups?
Apr 12 16:54:33 <evoli> but many many will say "I want to fight and prove my skill against other pilots"
Apr 12 16:54:40 <Cam> not all of them lemming
Apr 12 16:54:45 <Cam> they just need some crossover
Apr 12 16:54:45 <Roguelazer> We'd just degenerate to exactly what we are, an elitist 1v1 community.
Apr 12 16:54:55 <Alamar> how do you cross it over without creating the SCP?
Apr 12 16:55:04 <Cam> a valk vs a prom should be relatively even, a valk vs rag the rag's dead
Apr 12 16:55:06 <Roguelazer> But if each group has a well definined role, then we'd be in a position to encourage the Multiplayer part of MMORPG>
Apr 12 16:55:11 <Roguelazer> No Cam.
Apr 12 16:55:17 <Roguelazer> A prom is a 1337 Rag, not a 1337 Valk.
Apr 12 16:55:18 <Lemming> the problem is that the prom is in the wrong class
Apr 12 16:55:26 <Roguelazer> You're thinking of a Prom as a fighter. But it isn't. It's a bomber.
Apr 12 16:55:27 <Lemming> it's a bomber with the stats of a multi use ship
Apr 12 16:55:28 <Roguelazer> It always has.
Apr 12 16:55:29 <Alamar> Cam, how do you do that without making it so Prom vs Rag is a dead Rag?
Apr 12 16:55:36 <Cam> no the problem is you guys are trying to put a class on the prom
Apr 12 16:55:38 <Roguelazer> Prom v Rag should be dead rag.
Apr 12 16:55:48 <Roguelazer> Cam, go ingame sometime and tell me what the Prom is described as.
Apr 12 16:55:51 <Alamar> heh, point.
Apr 12 16:55:55 <Lemming> cam, we aren't, the prom put the class on it self, being called a bomber
Apr 12 16:56:11 <Roguelazer> Is it Prometheus (Uber Fighter), or Prometheus (Heavy Bomber) ?
Apr 12 16:56:12 <evoli> I think most of us think the Prom should be what the Rag is now?
Apr 12 16:56:16 <evoli> Rag is an -awesome- bomber
Apr 12 16:56:17 <Cam> the rag would have weapons that are good against large ships like the prom, but not against light fighters
Apr 12 16:56:20 <evoli> 5 ports... think of it, wow
Apr 12 16:56:27 <Roguelazer> 'cause I'm pretty sure there was no fighter component in the Prom's description.
Apr 12 16:56:38 <Alamar> and, yet again, what the prom will need to fight light fighers isn't armor, it's agility.
Apr 12 16:56:49 <Alamar> and when it has that, you get the SCP.
Apr 12 16:56:49 <Cam> not if it has enough armor
Apr 12 16:56:57 <Alamar> er, yes.
Apr 12 16:57:04 <Cam> the SCP isn't that far out of balance
Apr 12 16:57:11 <Alamar> whoa.
Apr 12 16:57:13 <Lemming> "Prometheus Bomber/Transport Ship Class" "Ragnarok Heavy Support Ship Class"
Apr 12 16:57:14 <Roguelazer> I think he's high.
Apr 12 16:57:16 <Alamar> that explains a lot.
Apr 12 16:57:26 <Roguelazer> It's the only explaination.
Apr 12 16:57:29 <Cam> i can take out SCPs in a cent
Apr 12 16:57:45 <evoli> Cam: right. cents are the BEST :) now
Apr 12 16:57:47 <Roguelazer> There's no other state of mind where somebody would think that a SCP is almost balanced, AND that it *should* be balanced with valkyries.
Apr 12 16:57:47 <Alamar> sure, people can, but not against good SCP players.
Apr 12 16:58:01 <evoli> Alamar, hehe, against GOOD players, what can you do?
Apr 12 16:58:05 <Lemming> an scp in a decently skilled pilot's hand is scary
Apr 12 16:58:05 <evoli> NERF THE VETS DAMMIT!
Apr 12 16:58:06 <evoli> :)
Apr 12 16:58:09 <Alamar> in an SCP, not much.
Apr 12 16:58:21 <Cam> we need niki here
Apr 12 16:58:23 <evoli> even if they are in a vult, cent, (Or HOG O_O)
Apr 12 16:58:24 <Lemming> right now the prom is the support ship and the rag is the bomber
Apr 12 16:58:25 <Alamar> against a good player in a Raganarok? well, I've taken Shape in his MGC.
Apr 12 16:58:41 <evoli> Lemming: do you think it would be nice if we traded the roles of Rag and PRom, Cent and Valk?
Apr 12 16:58:43 <Roguelazer> Lemming: I think you're ignoring that word.
Apr 12 16:58:51 <evoli> Lemming: it'd be a little closer to "the story"
Apr 12 16:58:58 <Alamar> fighting Matriarch in his SCP, most people don't touch him.
Apr 12 16:58:58 <Lemming> yes evoli
Apr 12 16:59:00 <Alamar> or Martin.
Apr 12 16:59:05 <evoli> Lemming: I agree with you on that
Apr 12 16:59:18 <Cam> what you guys are proposing will piss everyone other than fighter pilots off
Apr 12 16:59:18 <Roguelazer> A support ship SUPPLEMENTS other ships. It doesn't [by itself] kill dozens of enemies
Apr 12 16:59:20 <evoli> Alamar, yea... the rag isn't special
Apr 12 16:59:28 <Asp> I think having the best speed demon in the hands of one nation really sucked.. Like in 3.3, etc..
Apr 12 16:59:33 <Roguelazer> Cam: What you're proposing will make the game into a "everything is a fighter" game.
Apr 12 16:59:35 <Lemming> cam: you shouldn't be fighting fighters in a bomber
Apr 12 16:59:35 <evoli> Alamar, but it sure can bomb :)
Apr 12 16:59:44 <Cam> not all bombers
Apr 12 16:59:45 <Roguelazer> Besides, Serco still has the SVG.
Apr 12 16:59:46 <Cam> just the prom
Apr 12 16:59:48 <Roguelazer> And ALL The standard fighters.
Apr 12 16:59:49 <Cam> because it's special
Apr 12 16:59:52 <Alamar> Cam, yes, because they'd have to play roles. people have been spoiled by the AGT SCP.
Apr 12 17:00:08 <Roguelazer> Alamar, don't hurt his fragile intellect.
Apr 12 17:00:09 <Alamar> and the Rev C is trivial to get.
Apr 12 17:00:11 <Lemming> yes, it (should) excel at bombing, more so than similar ships
Apr 12 17:00:15 <Roguelazer> Obviously people shouldn't play roles in a MMORPG.
Apr 12 17:00:25 <Roguelazer> Pah! Role-Playing! The indignity!
Apr 12 17:00:26 <Asp> Guys, I think the proper way would be in between what Cam is saying and what some of you are saying..
Apr 12 17:00:29 <Cam> why would people fly bombers if a noob in a cent could take them out with ease?
Apr 12 17:00:38 <Roguelazer> Cam: To BOMB things!
Apr 12 17:00:39 <Alamar> that's not what we're saying.
Apr 12 17:00:59 <Asp> If the bombers are _totally_ defenseless the players in them will be upset because they may not always get the escort support they require.
Apr 12 17:01:00 <Roguelazer> How about when the put in station turrets, eh? It IS coming.
Apr 12 17:01:03 <Cam> they're not going to be able to bomb anything if there is even one fighter in the way, that's what you're saying
Apr 12 17:01:12 <Roguelazer> Cam, that's why they have ESCORTS.
Apr 12 17:01:15 <Lemming> why would some one fly a figher when a cap ship can take it out?
Apr 12 17:01:17 <Roguelazer> And then we have group combat!
Apr 12 17:01:24 <Alamar> and group combat with a purpose.
Apr 12 17:01:26 <Roguelazer> Which if any of you remember is much, much more fun than 1v1 combat.
Apr 12 17:01:37 <Asp> Roguelazer: You're assuming that the players will all be really team oriented and aware.
Apr 12 17:01:38 <Alamar> not just "teams of rev cs and SCPs fighting".
Apr 12 17:01:44 <Roguelazer> There's a lot of things coming to bomb.
Apr 12 17:01:45 <Lemming> most of your ideas are geared towards 1vs1
Apr 12 17:01:53 <Roguelazer> Turrets, stations, and capital ships for starters.
Apr 12 17:01:55 <Alamar> Asp, it works on other MMORGS.
Apr 12 17:01:57 <Roguelazer> Plus the mysterious new Hive stuff.
Apr 12 17:02:10 <Cam> because as it stands now, 1v1 is the most important
Apr 12 17:02:13 <Asp> Bombers should be crumby, crumby fighters but not totally defenseless.
Apr 12 17:02:23 <Roguelazer> Right now, people'll be able to fly in solo with their SCP and blow the shit out of the defenses, then bomb the target.
Apr 12 17:02:26 <Roguelazer> Escort? Bah!
Apr 12 17:02:27 <Cam> and i'm saying without any crossover at all you wont get people into bombers
Apr 12 17:02:28 <Lemming> 1vs1 is the most important because every ship is equal
Apr 12 17:02:30 <Alamar> Cam, do we want to cling to 1v1 or look forward?
Apr 12 17:02:39 <Alamar> some crossover, fine. the SCP isn't it.l
Apr 12 17:02:40 <Lemming> all of them are barely specialized
Apr 12 17:02:41 <Roguelazer> If they introduced that new combat with the current 1v1 oriented balance system, it'd be boring.
Apr 12 17:02:50 <Roguelazer> People would complain STILL about the lack of group combat, because people are lazy.
Apr 12 17:02:51 <Alamar> the SCP is so unbalanced its silly.
Apr 12 17:02:57 <Cam> no i'd like group combat that you describe, but it's not going to work if implemented without the player base
Apr 12 17:02:57 <Miharu> I'd like to take this moment to point out that we don't really have that much of a say in this matter, just "nudge" power.
Apr 12 17:03:10 <Roguelazer> Right now, I could take a fleet of IDF pilots into B8 and do group combat. But I won't. Because I'm lazy.
Apr 12 17:03:15 <Alamar> with flares and AGT the SCP moves faster than a dual flare SVG. that's _sick_.
Apr 12 17:03:20 <Roguelazer> To get any group combat, the game needs to force you.
Apr 12 17:03:23 <Kriss> Miharu - that never stops people. Have a peek over at the GW boards.. Holy Hell ;-)
Apr 12 17:03:25 <Cam> If i went in game right now and took out a bomber of your description, i wouldn't find any escorts to protect me
Apr 12 17:03:32 <Miharu> GW?
Apr 12 17:03:34 <Alamar> in a guild you would.
Apr 12 17:03:35 <Roguelazer> Cam, exactly. Because people are lazy.
Apr 12 17:03:36 <Cam> all that will do is force me to get back in a fighter
Apr 12 17:03:38 <Kriss> Games Workshop
Apr 12 17:03:43 <Kriss> (Of warhammer fame)
Apr 12 17:03:46 <Cam> and then the bombers sit on the shelf
Apr 12 17:03:52 <Roguelazer> But if the game structure REQUIRES that you NEED to have escorts to progress, then people will.
Apr 12 17:03:54 <Alamar> BLAK has protected bomber Rags several times in cap ship battles.
Apr 12 17:03:56 <evoli> brb
Apr 12 17:03:58 <Roguelazer> Right now, the game is extremely 1v1 balanced.
Apr 12 17:03:58 <Alamar> get a guild that cares.
Apr 12 17:04:00 <Asp> Personally, I don't mind if people ignore the bombers until the cap ship stuff is ready..
Apr 12 17:04:00 <Lemming> that's because no one is going to escort you because they are so use to being the good against everything ship
Apr 12 17:04:09 <Roguelazer> IDF (among other things), is doing a bit of training on group pilots.
Apr 12 17:04:15 <Alamar> Lemming, correct!
Apr 12 17:04:19 <-- evoli has quit (Client exited)
Apr 12 17:04:20 <Lemming> and you shouldn't be putting around near enemy fighters
Apr 12 17:04:20 <Asp> I mean, it makes sense. Right now the universe is devoid of cap ships.. so the bombers sit in mothballs. No problem.
Apr 12 17:04:21 <Roguelazer> But without game mechanisms to make group combat necessary, it will never happen.
Apr 12 17:04:40 <Alamar> why support a real bomber when you can fly the SCP and still eat rev cs if you have to.
Apr 12 17:04:48 <Roguelazer> Exactly, Alamar.
Apr 12 17:04:58 <Asp> Roguelazer: The Sedina thing is sort of the precursor to such mechanisms.
Apr 12 17:05:00 <Lemming> until bigger ships are added, at which point people will realize "hey, my ship sucks against the huge ship"
Apr 12 17:05:07 <Cam> You guys are hoping that dividing up purposes for the ships will suddenly bring about group combat, but it wont
Apr 12 17:05:13 <Lemming> and might go, oh hey, maybe i should use a bigger ship!
Apr 12 17:05:14 <Alamar> right now, people use rev cs to take caps.
Apr 12 17:05:18 <Roguelazer> But if nothing changes Lemming, or if Cam's suggestiosn are implimented, new content will NOT improve the game.
Apr 12 17:05:39 <Miharu> shut up ALL OF YOU.
Apr 12 17:05:44 <Lemming> my changes should be slowly added
Apr 12 17:05:50 <Miharu> you're acting like three year olds
Apr 12 17:05:54 <Cam> if you make any ship in the game un-competitive it wont get used
Apr 12 17:05:59 <Roguelazer> Cam, you don't get it.
Apr 12 17:06:03 <Cam> i do get it
Apr 12 17:06:04 <Roguelazer> It's not un-competitive.
Apr 12 17:06:06 <Kriss> Cam - Well.. if one side starts doing it, the rest would follow suit.. ;-)
Apr 12 17:06:09 <Cam> yes it is
Apr 12 17:06:11 <Kriss> Hell, even if one small group..
Apr 12 17:06:13 <Alamar> it's competative, but not 1v1 against another class.
Apr 12 17:06:13 <Roguelazer> You think EVERYTHING should be balanced to everything else.
Apr 12 17:06:17 <Roguelazer> That's small thinking.
Apr 12 17:06:20 <Kriss> ..but it takes some more people than the current player #'s.
Apr 12 17:06:21 <Asp> Cam: In the short term it's okay if they're unused.. if nobody flies a rag for three months until the group combat is implemented I don't think that's a big deal
Apr 12 17:06:24 <Roguelazer> Everything should be balanced to its role!
Apr 12 17:06:40 <Lemming> it's like saying 4 busses should take out a small cap ship with 4 turrets
Apr 12 17:06:41 <Cam> Asp: I don't think anyone will use them in the current universe
Apr 12 17:06:50 <Roguelazer> Cam, the universe is changing.
Apr 12 17:06:53 <Cam> sure groups are great
Apr 12 17:07:03 <Cam> but primarily i see 1 person at a time
Apr 12 17:07:05 <Asp> Cam: Once there's an advanced version of the Sedina thing people will buy them so they can avalon the cap ships.
Apr 12 17:07:08 <Alamar> right now, yes.
Apr 12 17:07:14 <Roguelazer> We're finally moving away from our little teeny weeny 1v1 Space Quake origins into MMORPG giant space battles.
Apr 12 17:07:30 <Kriss> Uh..
Apr 12 17:07:30 <Alamar> do we cater to 1v1 or do we prepare for multis?
Apr 12 17:07:33 <Asp> The Sedina thing, as primitive as it is, already almost creates the situations we want.
Apr 12 17:07:34 <Roguelazer> What you're proposing is a giant step backwards into Space Quake (now featuring 7680 sectors!) 2.0
Apr 12 17:07:40 <Kriss> Vendetta is a lot of things, but sure as hell not an RPG.
Apr 12 17:07:42 <Cam> Alamar, i'm hoping you can have both
Apr 12 17:07:51 <Roguelazer> What we're arguing for is a step into the world of balanced, role-playing gaming.
Apr 12 17:07:53 <Alamar> you can, you want 1v1, fly a fighter!
Apr 12 17:08:01 <Cam> that's not my point
Apr 12 17:08:03 <Roguelazer> Alamar is precisely right.
Apr 12 17:08:08 <Alamar> or fly the same ship as your foe.
Apr 12 17:08:09 <Roguelazer> Fighters will still exist.
Apr 12 17:08:11 <Kriss> Balanced 'role playing gaming'?
Apr 12 17:08:14 <Alamar> you can have bomber duels, feel free!
Apr 12 17:08:23 <Roguelazer> Yes Kriss. As in roles balanced against each other, rather than ships.
Apr 12 17:08:35 * Kriss blinks
Apr 12 17:08:38 <Lemming> if you want a fair fight against a bomber, fight it in a bomber
Apr 12 17:08:38 <Roguelazer> So balance the Bomber class against the Fighter class, rather than the SCP against the Valk.
Apr 12 17:08:41 <Kriss> Elaborate?
Apr 12 17:08:46 <Asp> Yes, exactly. 1v1 pvp people should be in fighters for the time being. If bombers and attack ships sit on the shelves for a little while waiting for their role to be implemented that's okay.
Apr 12 17:08:51 <Cam> if you have specific weapons for certain ships you can have ships that can hold their own against fighters, or with some weapon swapping take down a cap ship
Apr 12 17:08:51 <Roguelazer> IE: All Fighters can usually beat all bombers.
Apr 12 17:08:52 <Kriss> Ah, but that has nothing to do with roleplaying. At all.
Apr 12 17:09:01 <Roguelazer> Kriss, it only works if you play a role.
Apr 12 17:09:08 <Alamar> whops, I'll be right back
Apr 12 17:09:13 <Alamar> or if you play one role at a time.
Apr 12 17:09:17 <Roguelazer> If you use your bomber's "bombing" role to bomb, instead of to shoot up fighters.
Apr 12 17:09:23 <Lemming> the 'latest and greatest' bomber will always be out of use, as they will not have much to bomb
Apr 12 17:09:27 <Roguelazer> It's not what you thought I meant, but it's what I mean.
Apr 12 17:09:29 <Alamar> we have the luxury of changing roles by changing ships.
Apr 12 17:09:37 <Roguelazer> Exactly my words.
Apr 12 17:09:39 <Alamar> most RPGs don'thave that.
Apr 12 17:09:43 <Kriss> Roguelazer - if you wish to redefine the whole term 'roleplaying game', you're halfway there..
Apr 12 17:09:52 <Asp> Hehe.
Apr 12 17:09:56 <Miharu> yeah rogue
Apr 12 17:09:59 <Asp> He means combat roles. Not the traditional useage.
Apr 12 17:10:00 <Roguelazer> Vendetta is able to combine traditional 1v1 combat with group combat because we can change our roles just by buying a new ship
Apr 12 17:10:01 <Asp> usage
Apr 12 17:10:07 <Miharu> roleplaying games have the PLAYER fitting the role
Apr 12 17:10:16 <Miharu> not the things the character uses
Apr 12 17:10:24 <Roguelazer> Admittably, roles are somewhat tied to your character because of the statistics.
Apr 12 17:10:26 <Kriss> Asp - so yeah, new role in Team Fortress. Still nothing to do with roleplaying.. ;-)
Apr 12 17:10:53 <Roguelazer> IE: Someone who really wanted to bomb might have a high Heavy Weapons skill, whereas somebody who wanted to trade all day would be like me and not hole any CP or Weapons Licenses.
Apr 12 17:10:54 <-- novuleto has quit (Quit: live long and prosper!)
Apr 12 17:10:57 <Cam> I don't think it's that hard to make bombers an even match for fighters with one loadout, and another loadout to take out caps
Apr 12 17:11:05 <Roguelazer> But they shouldn't be, Cam.
Apr 12 17:11:10 <Cam> why not?
Apr 12 17:11:15 <Asp> I mean, let's face it... Vendetta is unique! THat's why it has so much potential.. but that also means that a lot of the established terms won't fit.
Apr 12 17:11:16 <Miharu> I think I'm the only person here qualified to actually *SAY* what roleplaying is in this game
Apr 12 17:11:24 <Kriss> Roguelazer - that, still, is not roleplaying.
Apr 12 17:11:24 <Lemming> when i see a bomber, i think bomber, not anti-fighter
Apr 12 17:11:26 <Miharu> ;) @ asp
Apr 12 17:11:38 <Cam> yes lemming, but we have this vast degree of weapons
Apr 12 17:11:43 <Kriss> Asp - Sarcasm, hopefully? ;-)
Apr 12 17:11:47 <Lemming> which needs to be split up
Apr 12 17:11:48 <Roguelazer> Miharu, I'm talking about a different kind of roleplaying. So let's replace the term roleplaying with, uhh... "combat role experiencing" for the remainder of the conversation.
Apr 12 17:11:49 <Roguelazer> Agreed?
Apr 12 17:12:01 <Asp> Kriss: No?
Apr 12 17:12:02 <Lemming> right now all of them are geared towards anti-fighter
Apr 12 17:12:07 <Miharu> CRE, then.
Apr 12 17:12:11 <Cam> I don't see why it would hurt to have a bomber compare to a fighter with the right loadout
Apr 12 17:12:16 <Miharu> use roleplaying and I'll bitch at you.
Apr 12 17:12:22 <Kriss> Asp - *whack*, then.. yeah, it has a good amount of potential allright.
Apr 12 17:12:23 <Lemming> and i do cam
Apr 12 17:12:28 <Roguelazer> Because Cam, that would encourage people to do everything soli.
Apr 12 17:12:30 <Kriss> ..but calling an apple a pear won't do much good.
Apr 12 17:12:32 <Roguelazer> *solo
Apr 12 17:12:33 <Asp> Kriss: I'm lost.
Apr 12 17:12:39 <Roguelazer> We want to require groups.
Apr 12 17:12:59 <Lemming> not so much require
Apr 12 17:13:00 <Asp> Kriss: What's wrong with the statement?
Apr 12 17:13:03 <Kriss> Asp - 'established terms' still fit rather well, as long as they're actually used proper..
Apr 12 17:13:05 <Lemming> just encourage it heavily
Apr 12 17:13:11 <Cam> no kriss, because one fighter combat equipped bomber would not be able to take out 2 fighters, or a cap, or another bomber
Apr 12 17:13:17 <Asp> Kriss: Some of them need to be invented.
Apr 12 17:13:27 <Kriss> Asp - like?
Apr 12 17:13:35 <Cam> it would be able to hold it's ground against 1 fighter
Apr 12 17:13:40 <Kriss> Cam - I'm not arguing against you, mind ;-)
Apr 12 17:13:45 <Roguelazer> Well, it's supper time for me.
Apr 12 17:13:50 <Roguelazer> I'm posting the logs and bailing.
Apr 12 17:13:52 <Lemming> and, as we've been saying, it shouldn't
Apr 12 17:13:58 <Cam> it wouldn't be useful for anything else

*cough
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/9877

Uh... That's interesting, rogue, but it's kinda long and hard to read. Lost interest reading the thing after 16:30:02. Just searched for "hog" and read those sections, but really... you probably could have afforded to edit it. Or maybe just summarize all the balance suggestions.

This was interesing though,
Apr 12 16:29:03 <Roguelazer> My Wraith of DOOM was doing pretty well until that uber-atlas came along and blasted it.

Uber-atlas? I was flying an Atlas III... Apparently the Atlas X is even better.

Some bits that I do agree with are that the Warthog should be significantly better so it's a middle-weight fighter, and the Atlas should be a mid-level cargo ship.

Uber-atlas is redundant. He just ment to say Atlas. What you say is not true. The devs have always intended the Atlas to be the best all round ship. It's been the only consistency in vendetta since there was an Atlas. I was even thinking .. instead of the cap ships, why not just have a some big Atlasie?

Roguelazer, I still don't like TinyURL. you have no idea what hides behind that URL, it doesn't last over time and it's pointless. please, if you're using something I wrote, keep the original URL.

Hoax: if the Atlas is supposed to be the best all-around ship, then what's the Warthog? Well other than crap, at least. I mean, the Atlas has decently large cargo space, is relatively fast to strafe, relatively fast to turn, and has an l-port and an s-port. The Hog doesn't have as much cargo space, is slower to strafe (and gets significantly slower when you put weapons on it), is slower to turn, and has the same ports as the Atlas. So the Atlas, a cargo ship, is always going to be faster than a supposed combat ship. On top of that, all of the NPC traders fly Atlases, so they've earned a reputation of being cannon fodder. So I guess they're supposed to really be flying Warthogs, I guess.

Crip, he was bein sarcastic.

Sarcasm should be shot.

I'm going to be an ass now but hey whats different.

but in the case of a heavy ship and an escort, the chance for the escort to actively fight off the fighter coming in to peck on the heavy is small at best. And if you then make the heavies only prey for fighters you will create this game even more so as a light fighter galore.

Not to mention that this will bump us right back into 3.1 where all people were flying were valks and vults and the rest was just sitting on the shelf maybe getting used later. I agree that now people are just flying cents and scps (and the occasional atlas :D) and that the scps are over the top. But at least all the ships get used.

The only way I see this succeed is if you tripple the armour on all the ships you want to act as bombers, and reduce its agility so that it can't fight a light fighter. At the same time introduce a repairgun that is able to repair bigger damage then what it can repair now(double, tripple). Or at least give the repairgun very good autoaim. But I fear this will just create even more behemoths...

I however just wanna make 1 measly point, take away the agt on proms and it makes them severely less able to lay the hurt on these light fighters. It is still possible to take out light fighters, but it is way way way more difficult.

However, maybe to solve empty loadouts with the full ones, why not think about using an inherit weight for empty cargoports. Meaning if your cargo weighs 80 you only need to add 30 on top of the normal shipweight. Making it easier to actually make tradeships act as tradeships in stead of uber fightingships if they are unloaded. But it is just an idea and might be way off of what we want.

cheers

You know the REALLY sad thing? Most of the people discussing balance on IRC rarely play the actual game. So lets put my personal grievances aside and pull out the OBJECTIVE points.

1) Some extracts from the prom description:

"The Serco Prometheus forms the backbone of the Serco Dominion Military"
"Built from the ground up as a heavy assault ship"
"vessel small enough to be deployed like a fighter craft"
"up to the Skycommand true assault ship"

It says its a heavy Bomber/Transport class. HMMM. Lets think about this for a minute. The MkII is a bomber. The MkIII is a transport. The MkI is both. The Skycommand is a bloody assault ship. Not a bomber. Perhaps compare it to the Centaur family- what about the Aggresso for a nice example. That's NOT a transport so much as a heavy fighter. Don't try and pigeonhole each and every type of ship.

2) "Apr 12 17:06:21 <Asp> Cam: In the short term it's okay if they're unused.. if nobody flies a rag for three months until the group combat is implemented I don't think that's a big deal"

Well, I do. If you're going to make certain ships unusable in 1v1 combat, do it when the time allows more group-orientated combat than currently instead of viciously nerfing half the ships for 3 months. Are you out of your mind?

3) The SVG cannot stand up to the IBG. Turning the prom into a bomber without at least tweaking the SVG to be AT LEAST better than the Vulturius would be ludicrous, since there would be no answer to the better Itani ships. Newsflash: Itani's special is not the IBG. Both nations are SUPPOSED to have workhorses that can 1v1 50:50 each other, and this isn't the case. For crying out loud, even the valk is far superior to the SVG in 1v1 combat, and there's people crying out how crap it is.

Interesting observation: most of the people discussing the so-called balance are Itani.

I wholeheartedly agree that something needs to be done about the SCprom. But rendering it USELESS against a nippy fighter that isnt even a nation special ship is, for the moment, just laughable.

Apr 12 16:29:26 <Lemming> and balancing of large port weapons
Apr 12 16:29:35 <Lemming> like a dump in the mass of AGT

So even before you talk about how utterly crappy the other L port weapons are, you suggest nerfing the only good one we have. Great! Lets rename the game to IBG online.

Apr 12 16:30:22 <Roguelazer> My biggest complaint is that Warthogs and Wraiths are outperformed by Proms and Atlases.

Atlases aside, Proms SHOULD outperform wraiths. Wraiths are available at trade level 1. Proms at combat level 8. Warthogs need a boost, maybe the territorial defender should be able to hold its own against the proms. But I'm getting a distinct NERF vibe from the convo already.

Apr 12 16:35:02 <Roguelazer> A bomber should not fight a fighter and win

This is what I take issue with. A bomber should not be able to take a fighter on the fighter's terms, but if it lines the fighter up, boom. Edge-of-your-seat combat for both. The SCprom is too good at lining up the fighter for the sunflare hits, and that's where the killer damage comes from. Its not the AGT.

Apr 12 16:42:50 <Alamar> even the Prom MKIII with flares + AGT has a better mass / thrust than any Vult with flares or a valk with two flares and a neut.

That's because sunflares are heavy for a reason. They're not supposed to be dual-mounted on a fighter ship because then we'd be going back to 3.2.x with the uber-valks-of-rocket-death- only with FASTER ROCKETS. They're heavy S port weapons, tactical death machines. If you put 2 energy weapons on a vult you'll out-dance any prom all of the time, and evade AGT fire really well. Again, the problem's with the sunflare hits which simply crumble light fighters into oblivion.

Apr 12 16:54:45 <Roguelazer> We'd just degenerate to exactly what we are, an elitist 1v1 community

That's because Vendetta only provides for 1v1 currently (save the class frig battles). Its a blank canvas. You want to balance the prom as a bomber against capital ships that don't even work fully yet. That's just idiocy.

Apr 12 16:57:14 <Roguelazer> I think he's high.
Apr 12 16:57:26 <Roguelazer> It's the only explaination.
Apr 12 16:57:47 <Roguelazer> There's no other state of mind where somebody would think that a SCP is almost balanced, AND that it *should* be balanced with valkyries.

Well guess what, you want a valkyrie that rules the universe. The SCP is almost balanced. It needs tweaks to it, but not a drastic beating with the goddamn nerf stick.

I'm bored of this. I'll come back if people argue with what I'm saying, but I'll sum it up nicely for you all.

-mkI-III are fine.
-SCP needs TWEAKING. Not nerfing.
-Balancing ships against something that isnt there is lunacy. Ok?
-If the SCP becomes a bomber, what the hell do Serco fight with? UIT faction ships. WRONG. The SVG needs boosting FIRST.

[/rant]

I for one play the game UncleDave. a few hours a day is a light load for me. thank you very much. as for objectivity, numbers are nice to look at, and then try the ships ingame.

now then the SCP is a heavy assult / bomber, it's not a light fighter. it shouldn't behave like one either. here's another test, a Valk without flares is mostly a good target today. put two N2s and a sunflare on a Valk and it is within 1% of the mass / thrust of the SCP, and the SCP still has a 20% advantage of length / spin torque. a slight adjustment? towards what? one of the ships has neuts and one flare, the other has two flares and an AGT, and twice the armor. they move just as well, but the Valk has a better mass / spin torque which seems to relate to very little ingame, especially when using weapons with prox or good autoaim. I _really_ don't see a weapon fix that can solve this. what's to stop the SCP from packing the same weaponry makes the Valk better? heck, I dislike neut + AGT proms more than flare + AGT. Martin and Matriarch taught me that much.

I don't want the valks to be better than now, they're pretty good these days, even though they're too fat, but solving that is really hard. making them faster will be bad, the common advice is to add mass / thrust to make the weapon layouts matter less. it might work, but it'll break the "light fighter" thing. today, a Valk isn't anything really special against another light fighter.

as for the SVG, it is better than the vulturis. 75 drain alone is a totally crippeling attribute for anything except sector combat. the SVG has better thrust and a wee bit more armor. they're both good ships though. the IBG is better than both, yeah, by a noticable deal. the Rev C is however very close to the IBG, and anyone who bothers can get it -- at very central positions in the universe even. I still agree to dumping the armor of the Cents to around 5000 or so, that'd help give a very slightly upped Vult a better role. oh, and if you put two N2s on a Vult MkIV, which is the best Vult default available to the Itanis, you're again within 1-2% of the mass / thrust of a SCP with flares + AGT and the SCP still owns length / spin torque wise. dance around it? I don't think so.

as for the SVG vs Valk, they aren't _that_ far apart in combat. the SVG has a noticably better both mass / thrust and length / spin torque with similar layouts. the difference is a good bit larger than the difference between the Vult and the SCP, or the Valk and the SCP. this also pretty much fits my experience with flying the ships. you do have to fly them very differently though, flying a Vult is a lot more work than a Valk. wings catch proxy-stuff like mad, which seems to be what most people get zapped by. on the other side, flown well, a Vult is hard to hit with non-proxy weapons, multis are hard though, you really have to pay attention to where you're getting fire from. there aren't a lot of experienced vult pilots out there though. it is a specialist ship, the Valk isn't.

oh, and no ship should be pointless in 1v1, but different classes should be noticable. a light fighter should dance around a heavy assult, or a bomber, or a trader. if you want assult duels, fight another assult ship. I do this to this day, since I can't be bothered to fight SCPs and only occasionally IBGs or Rev Cs one on one.

and you know what, one of Roguelazers primary arguments is that group combat doesn't happen until people are _made_ to do group combat. I used to disagree, but I'm starting to understand his argument. as long as the heavy ships don't _need_ support in combat, they won't get it. if you want to fly a fighter, fly a fighter. if you want to bomb something, fly a bomber. if you want to fly a generic ship to fit most roles, fly a (fixed) Hog. this isn't a goal for tomorrow, this is a goal for the long term. but to get anywhere we need to start working in that direction. every time this comes up, people say "not now". that's not going to change. feel free to call it a nerf, for me it's about making ships actually have a purpose, not just be a fighter with a different set of statistics.

Cam, I said most people...

But let me remind you.

TO BE A HEAVY ASSAULT SHIP IT NEEDS TO BE ABLE TO HOLD OFF FIGHTERS.

I AM NOT ARGUING OVER THE UBERNESS OF THE SCP.

Now you say AGT/neut3 proms are more formidable than those with sunflares. That is a problem (even though I suspect you just need to fight a good rocketeer rather than an energy artiste.) In which case, the SCP needs a slight tweak down in spin torque to stop it tracking its target. One more thing: thrust is irrelevant below a certain point, its the spin torque that matters. Strafing works undeniably well in dodging anything, but you need superhuman endurance to keep it up over a 10 minute fight (especially if you're using a keyboard to strafe.) Barrel rolling is the alpha and omega of dodging, so long as its not dumb-rolling. Which makes spin torque the key.

Now you can mince around as much as you want with talking about the SVG-vs-valk scenario and whatever other ships, but you acknowledged that the IBG is INSANE for a light fighter ship. Lovely how the guys in IRC barely touched on THAT issue. It gets tanked by the prom by weaponry/armor alone, sure, but that doesn't make it any less godly at taking down anything else.

Long-term goals are all well and good, but we haven't got a clue how larger ships will behave in the future. So trying to achieve a long-term goal when the long-term goalposts keep moving is just bloody stupid.

I *might* have an idea to fix this and make balancing easier... I'm gonna make another thread because its kinda off-topic for this.

I'm not Cam, thanks. Alamar over here.

I didn't say the IBG was insane, but it and the rev c need to be adjusted. no doubt. the reason that wasn't touched upon in the discussion was that for me, it was about roles, and right now, there is little doubt that the IBG is a light fighter. but yes, i needs to be hit over the head with something heavy.

as for rockets / neuts on the SCP, I've fought good rocketeers too, but I still prefer to face rockets than neuts. being in BLAK I do get the joy of facing people who can use a lot of different weapons and I get to fight them quite often if I want to. but a heavy assult should be able to hold of a fighter for a while, but not fight it on its terms.

as for the uberness of the SCP, the MkIII is closer to reality, but it's not what I think of when I hear "heavy assult" or "bomber". more armor, less agility. even the MkIII moves "well". compare it to it's natural classmates -- yes, it should be more mobile than a Hornet and the Ragnarok. right now, well, they don't even fit into the same game. the Prom MkIII is a fighter that happily comes into the frey to fight light fighters. look at Lonestar, he found the SCP to be too uber to be fair, so he started taking out the MkIII. it's fairer, but still... I don't know if anyone bothered, but look at the URL posted in the chat (and due to these boards, tinyURL gets used, GRRR! http://tinyurl.com/5pr33 is a link to the ship DB as of 13-04-2005, the permanent link is a bit too long and doesn't get wrapped.)

and if you're thinking endurance, Spuck showed that in the last turnament. it's fully doable. adapt.

and you might _feel_ it is stupid to look for long term goals since we're not sure where we'll be in the long term. since we can never predict the future, we should then just ignore it. good idea.

The key to dodging is changing your movement vector by accelerating or decelerating in any direction.

Spin torque is not an important factor in any acceleration or deceleration. In a barrel roll you are not trying to turn as fast as possible (*that* is limited by torque) but you are trying to change direction as fast as possible (and that is limited by thrust/mass). The turn is allways faster then the actual change in direction.

Example: you strafe to the right at maximum speed and then, you turn 90 degrees. You will then start accelerating in the new direction while decelerating in your old direction. After you have stopped turning for some time, you are still accelerating in the new direction while decelerating in the old one.

So for dodging (even using a barrel roll) the spin torque is not important, unless it gets *really* low.

Perhaps, but I hoped you'd look beyond that and into the matter of aiming while rolling.

Posting my opinion on the matter.

Yes, SCP's (Not MkI-III) need to be tweaked, but not nerfed. It's supposed to tear up most ships, thats why it's the serco special ship. It just does it a bit too well at this point. Yes, IBG's and Rev-C's need to have an armor reduction, they currently make any other light fighter useless. Also, the lack of a strong Valk may be contributing to the uberness of the prom. The serco now have a strong special ship, this is what it's supposed to be. However, there is no answer to the prom currently. Give Itani and maybe even UIT a ship that will compete with the prom (keeping in mind I reccomend a decrease in IBG armor) and things may get better. Make the valk more useable so that a Valk vs. Prom is a 50-50 fight and that the valk itself doesnt get torn up by a cent. In summary: Special ships are supposed to be superior, but not uber. Difficult to fight, but still beatable. Tweak the SCP, Valk, and Cents and I think we can find a happy medium that falls within this idea. I'm going to site Spellcast's suggestions once again as I still think he has a really solid idea of how the balance should work and how it can be accomplished.

Note: These are just my thoughts on SCP, Valk, Cent. I'm well aware there are other ships in dire need of balancing as well. See spellcast's Ship Balance Suggestions for more details!

quite honestly, we can't boost the Valk any more. we'll then get the same problem we have with the SCP today. I'd even say the Prom MkIII is too good today. if we don't do anything to the Valks, down the armor of the Cents with around 2K each, and reduce the SCP (thrust and spin torque wise) to something around, maybe just under, the MkIII today, I think we'd get something to try for a while. the armor shouldn't be touched though, it is a heavy ship, it should have (at least) 21K armor. if you look at the numbers, the MkIII is almost as good as the SCP, the main difference today is the armor and the top turbo speed / drain. oh, and as a bomber, the suggested SCP could probably do fine with 55 drain @ 220 or so.

Valk vs. Prom is a battle between two ships with very different roles, I don't really see them going head to head in a duel as a goal. it'd be like putting a Hornet against a Rev C, they fit different roles and they're not ment to fight eachother. although, I think they probably still could with these changes. Lonestar uses his MkIII very well, and it is as Cam would say, a nice bridge between a pure bomber and a pure fighter.

what we could do then is to move the MkIII from a light version (with the SCP, why do we bother with a light version, the SCP makes up for it in raw thrust / spin torque) to a pure bomber. make it close to the MkII of today, a bit less spin torque maybe, and give it 20K armor and infiboost at 210. pack it with flares and screamers and the only thing worse is the ragnarok -- which comperativly can't move worth squat.

oh, and when we cut the armor of all the Cents, could we please at the same time drop the non-special Cents to 3800->4400kgs or so? there is just no point to them weighing in at 50%+ of their brothers, when they have one less weapons port.

Thanks Dave, it's nice to know I'm not alone in thinking the prom should be able to hold it's ground.

These boards are probably a much better place to discuss this than in IRC, as there was so much being said in such a short period of time I don't think anyone was really able to keep track.

For the record: I do play the game on a regular basis, and I am mostly Itani.

We have a unique set of circumstances in vendetta that don't lend themselves well to balance.
It's a skill based combat system, it's the only MMO I can think of with a skill based combat system. It compares more to an FPS in that regard, and I can't remember any FPS games that had a leveling system.
So the players are divided, half of the players think that a level 9 ship should beat a level 4 ship hands down, the other half think that their skill should be the deciding factor. (I fall in that 2nd half)

People seem to think that when I say the Prom is "close" to balanced that I'm only referring to it's agility, which is completely absurd. When I say close I mean that in the general sense, we can agree it's too good for those who know how to use it, and from there we can find a way to drop it down a bit. The most agreeable idea I tend to hear is lowering it's turning. Lowering it's agility and raising it's armor is also a direction where it could go. And don't tell me armour doesn't matter! That had to be the stupidest comment made in our discussion, there is a balance between armour and agility, it just has to be found.
The Prom should be an even match for the Valk, they are both "special" ships.

Lowering the prom's acceleration will lessen it's ability to dodge, but not it's ability to put the hurt on others (it can still aim)
Lowering the prom's torque will lessen it's ability to put the hurt on others, but not it's ability to dodge.

the first will result in a heavy ship that's not too hard to hit, but if you get close you'll be blown to bits no matter what you fly.

the second will result in a heavy ship that's difficult to hit, that can't really shoot back at light fighters, but that can tear less-agile adversaries to bits.

I think the second one would need some damage-reducing armour to be viable, otherwise even the lightest fighter can wipe it out with ease. With some damage-reducing-armour of, say, -250 damage per shot you'd need a medium fighter like a hog to kill it fast.

terjekv:

I see your point about the Valk v. Prom battles. But I don't agree that valks should be left alone. Even if the other ships are reduced, the fact remains that the third port on the valk is still quite useless. It can't handle the extra weight well enough.

Ghost, I fly a Valk quite a lot these days. heck, I fly a 6000Kg Valk, it's okay. it's not, and it won't ever be, a rev c though. and this is a good thing. we don't want more hyperspiffy things it should make up for that loss of agility by having extra armor (not so important) but the extra weapons port however... that'll hurt a 5000 armor cent.

Cam, you say:

# So the players are divided, half of the players think that a
# level 9 ship should beat a level 4 ship hands down, the other
# half think that their skill should be the deciding factor. (I
# fall in that 2nd half)

I'm not saying a Valk should beat the Prom hands down. I'm saying it, and other light figheters, should have a marked advantage agility wise. if you're a good Prom pilot, sure, you can still lay the hurt down, but in scales that are completely different from now. these days Prom pilots (come on, we rarely see MkIIs anymore, only MkIIIs and SCPs) get away with doing a bad move or two, since it has the armor _and_ the agility to not really mind it. put two equally skilled players (or non-skilled) in the ships and the light figher should be the statistical winner.

as to what the armor has to say for the battle, well, not a huge amount compared to agility. sure, if you're talking about making armor in the 30K range, it'll make a difference. 12000 and 15000 isn't a very interesting difference, heck, people still fly a rev c with 7000 armor rather than a vult today. or for that matter, noone flies a 4000kg Axia Maud with 16500 armor. the thrust is 10N apart. how much armor would you need for that maud to be able to stand its ground? armor matters, yes, but only after certain other statistics have played their part.