I think this is the more appropriate forum to reply to BoneYard's thread posted in General.
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07:56AM BoneYard

Several years ago, after a lot of searching and leaving a game I played for years due to its "pay to win setup", I found Vendetta Online and immediately fell in love with it. It WAS the game I would have made if I had the "smarts" to make a game. I was not even bothered by the Pirates, as they are a part of the game, and even respected some like Savet for his honorable treatment of others.

BUT, the game has changed TOO MUCH over the years and it is no longer the fun game I fell in love with. A player shooting another with Admired and above ratings in monitored space and NFZ would get a huge hit on their standings which required time hauling trade goods or shooting bots to correct. Now, thanks to the "vocal minority", a player can home in Verasi C-4 and blast a player coming into the sector, monitored space, and get a Temp KOS that last 15 min or until their death. They then let the station defense kill them, and since they homed in that station, they come right back out to shoot the same player again. I keep hearing "No Place is Safe in VO" as an excuse for not protecting players, even in monitored space, but this is just plain silly and a lot have left game due to it, lots of them new players that we are trying to attract to the game.

Also, some now use their Furies, a weapon for sure, to kill in NFZ and get NO PENALTY for it. This is totally wrong, and I understand it is being addressed.

There are also too many other things that have changed in this game to the point I am now seriously looking for another game, as are several others that I know of. If it looks like a WIN for the RATS, not all RATS are Pirates, then it is a WIN for them. If enough of us faithful VO lovers leave due to the actions of the "vocal minority" then they WIN the game which may then fold due to lack of support and funds.

And for those in the "vocal minority" that may not know me, since I post very seldom on this Forum like a lot of other VO lovers, I AM A PROUD MEMBER OF TGFT and deny all the "slander" you all are flaming on 100. I seldom post in it either.

PLEASE DO NOT MAKE THIS ANOTHER ANTI TGFT FORUM POST. This is about the game and the direction it is headed that makes the game a lot less fun for the majority of players.
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You know, some of us have been playing this game from the beginning. I have watched VO change over years and, due to my prolonged 5+ years hiatus, I was really surprised at how much some of the things have actually changed when I returned. Some things changed for the better (faction redux & removal of auto-dodge bind) and some things changed for the worse (cheats, exploits, lack of morals and ethics in gameplay).
I would not say it was not "a game I fell in love with" long time ago but certainly a game that changed with the times and new people that are playing it now.
I adapted to the new situation and found out I can still enjoy playing VO like I used to.

In all your remarks about why you think this game changed for the worse I actually did not find anything that was not present in VO since it started:

A player shooting another with Admired and above ratings in monitored space and NFZ would get a huge hit on their standings which required time hauling trade goods or shooting bots to correct.

This has not changed a bit since 2003/4. If an attacker is willing to sacrifice his standing with the nation/faction he will shoot you in monitored space, at stations and in NFZ.

BLAK was doing it in 2004, most of them had TRI KOS and did not care about standings. Some players are doing the same now. This is nothing new and nothing has changed except we now have another limitation imposed and that is a 24h temp kos for 3 consecutive kills in nation/faction monitored space.
In fact, safety measures have been significantly improved over what we had a decade ago. 24h temp kos in UIT space blocks player from docking or homing at any subfaction in UIT capitol systems.

If you are my enemy and I catch you at UIT station in NFZ - I will shoot and kill you. I know I will get KOS with UIT and I know I will have to bot and trade to get my standing back. It's my choice if I want to do this in spite of grave repercussions.
Shooting enemies in monitored nation space was always present. There is a very severe standing penalty for that but players still do it as they were doing it a decade ago. If I shoot a UIT player in UIT space my standing will drop to -550/-590. It is my decision to shoot you anyway and deal with the consequences of my actions later.

The scenario you mentioned with the Verasi c-4 simply does not stand. You can do that with a player who is not respected/admired but after 3 consecutive kills you get 24h temp kos Valent and you are rehomed at Corvus.
Every kill of respected/admired players in subfaction sectors also pulls a significant faction standing loss that needs to be repaired if you do not want a permanent subfaction KOS status.

All safety measures are in place and working very well.

Also, some now use their Furies, a weapon for sure, to kill in NFZ and get NO PENALTY for it. This is totally wrong, and I understand it is being addressed.

Furies are relatively new thing I encountered upon my return to VO in 2014.
My first experience with furies happened in Verasi C-4 station NFZ where Boda Shandies tried to kill my trident with 3 furies. If he was not so excited and accidentally fired a shot at me, I would have died with my trident. His shot awaken the SF and they got him and I escaped with my trident at 20% health.

In reality he did not break any rules, he used furies as the game mechanics allow him to use them. After seeing this, I adapted, built my own furies and started using them the same way.
However, being able to use furies in this way without any faction penalty is a bit lame so I supported Fluffys suggestion for furies owners to be accountable for the actions of their pets.
Stygian Furie implementation is flawed

Use of furies is still a pretty much 'gray' area but completely regular under the current game mechanics. If devs would have taken this suggestion into consideration and acted upon it, there would be far less whining about the use of furies but - alas, it is up to them to have their say about this.

And for those in the "vocal minority" that may not know me, since I post very seldom on this Forum like a lot of other VO lovers, I AM A PROUD MEMBER OF TGFT and deny all the "slander" you all are flaming on 100. I seldom post in it either.

How can you call a well documented facts about TGFT unfair and unethical behavior a 'slander'. There is virtually a mountain of hard facts and evidence that support everything public thinks and says about TGFT. Have you even bothered being impartial and reading all about various 'tricks' TGFT has used so far to 'get one over the rest of the VO community'?

Loyalty to your friends is one thing but refusing to accept hard facts and evidence is 'blind loyalty' resulting in your indignation about bad reputation your guild brought upon itself by your leaders.
Look in your own yard and find the guilty ones there and do not blame others who exposed your dirty laundry to the public.
If TGFT had no dirty laundry to be exposed, this would not have happened in the first place.

Wake up and smell the roses.

Oh BoneYard is Boanerges, the guy who uses "The Sieger maneuver" - VO client force quit to save his dent from destruction and he whines about people slandering TGFT?

OK this explains a lot.

" and some things changed for the worse (cheats, exploits, lack of morals and ethics in gameplay)."

Thanks for admitting you are part of the problem.

It's really fascinating that you put so much effort into slandering TGFT, Bojan -- in the same way it's fasinating to watch an animal attack itself in the mirror because it doesn't realize it's seeing itself.

Prior to SKV re-animating and vomitting it's filth all over the game, TGFT had largely been uninterested in making loud public cases against others who cheat in the game. Even now you don't really see their guild leadership deeply involved in defending themselves here -- not because they feel they were in the wrong, but rather because this entire thing is utterly ridiculous and pariticpation in this conversation is largely counter-productive.

The only reason you are seeing yourself and your allies being called out for your duplicity by various more outspoken TGFT supporters (including myself), is because you leave us no choice. Some of us refuse to stand by and watch you westborough-baptist-church TGFT. You disrespect the huge amount of good TGFT has done for the game by leading this witch hunt, and ultimately, in your quest for unbridled domination over a foe who doesn't really fight back, you are hurting the game tremendously. Good people are leaving because of you and your antics -- not exactly a great thing in light of the already abysmally low player retention.

You disrespect the huge amount of good TGFT has done for the game by leading this witch hunt, and ultimately, in your quest for unbridled domination over a foe who doesn't really fight back, you are hurting the game tremendously.

1. Care to list the good things that TGFT were doing for VO? Because I really don't remember any besides selfishly padding their pockets with more money than they can spend.

2. They don't really fight back? You might want to rub your eyes and take a closer look at certain TGFT members, such as biretak, sieger, grizzly spacebear, ecka, ason, just to name a few. They aren't shy on 100 or with their guns.

3. You keep talking about the "vocal minority," yet the only ones being bitter and whining about the "state" of the game are those who invested heavily into TGFT. No, the VO community as a whole isn't hurt, but rather only the TGFT guildies.

Thanks for admitting you are part of the problem.

Sure I am part of the problem - I bring TGFT dirty laundry out in the open and good men of TGFT whine and threaten to leave the game because I disclose their dirty secrets - cheats, exploits, unethical and morally questionable actions in game.
If I kept silent, all would have been just *peachy*, TGFT would have continued playing rulers of the universe unscathed - peddling their spyware to whole player base, using autobombing plug-ins, leading vote mute campaigns with their vote-mute squad, cheating on stats by racking pk on alts and everyone would have been happy camper playing the best game of their lives.
I just had to spoil their fun and speak up, what a duplicitous bastard I am.

Prior to SKV re-animating and vomitting it's filth all over the game, TGFT had largely been uninterested in making loud public cases against others who cheat in the game. Even now you don't really see their guild leadership deeply involved in defending themselves here -- not because they feel they were in the wrong, but rather because this entire thing is utterly ridiculous and pariticpation in this conversation is largely counter-productive.

Of course they didn't, bringing up anyone else cheating would inevitably have brought attention to them as the VO cheating central. And it's understandable they don't speak up when faced with the hard irrefutable facts. Only thing they could say for anyone to believe their words is that they were in the wrong and they were acting like a scum and apologize to everyone. Alas, their vanity and their egos could not bear such shame so they kept silent.

The only reason you are seeing yourself and your allies being called out for your duplicity by various more outspoken TGFT supporters (including myself), is because you leave us no choice.

What duplicity? Care to elaborate?

Am I using TGFT utilities to spy on the vo community, am I using TGFT autobombing plug ins, am I conducting vote mute campaigns, am I cheating by racking pks on alts and cheating on duel stats? What?

You disrespect the huge amount of good TGFT has done for the game by leading this witch hunt, and ultimately, in your quest for unbridled domination over a foe who doesn't really fight back, you are hurting the game tremendously.

Simply not true. TGFT of the old did a lot of good for the game, when I returned I thought things are still the same but... they were not. I was sorely disappointed at TGFT of today, their cheats, exploits and all unethical stuff that came out in the open during the past months.

Good people are leaving because of you and your antics -- not exactly a great thing in light of the already abysmally low player retention..

Obviously our definition of 'good people' is quite different. For you 'good people' are your friends who cannot play fair and are unwilling to give up cheats and exploits and will rather leave VO then play without their 'toys' and without cheating and exploiting.
In the long run, VO will be better off without a kind of players responsible for all of this filth that came out of the TGFT workshop.
VO needs players but it can live and be better without players like them.

Failure, if I thought it was worth the effort in trying to convince you otherwise I would. But at this point I'm content to let you keep the paper bag over your head and allowing you to smell your own foul breath. Don't you have some meme's to make?

Even now you don't really see their guild leadership deeply involved in defending themselves here -- not because they feel they were in the wrong, but rather because this entire thing is utterly ridiculous and pariticpation in this conversation is largely counter-productive.

Sometimes that's a good thing, but we also all watched while KB dragged heavily on TGFT's reputation and TGFT leadership did nothing, all the while he dug himself in deeper and deeper by continuing his actions and admitting the things he was accused of, and not a peep from other TGFT leaders. For 5 weeks he was the face of TGFT and he alienated a lot of people. From my narrow viewpoint that was when TGFT began to look weak, and the little upstart trade guilds started to thrive.

I feel for Boneyard, but sometimes the way one wants to play becomes incompatible with the company he keeps. I learned that way back when I was a member of SCAR. All it takes is a few council members who 'just want to play and be left alone' to make it difficult for members who 'just want to play and be left alone'. If TGFT were a military style guild it wouldn't be as big of a problem.

This month two different TGFT members attacked me out of the blue (different days) and were hostile even after I asked them about it. Where is TGFT leadership on this? The last two times I PMed a TGFT councilor that I knew was online because I saw them repeatedly, I was ignored. Also some of my TGFT buddies have disappeared from by buddy list but I have deleted no buddies. It feels like either the TGFT council has lost control or they are intentionally putting me at arm's length.

"Sure I am part of the problem"

Again, thanks.

What duplicity? Care to elaborate?

I have already elaborated at length. Care to remember? Clearly not.

If you dropped the holier-than-thou attitude none of this would be a problem. TGFT corrected the utility issue you long ago, but you were the one who refused to move on.

-Docked players functioning as lookouts are not a cheat.

-Players hiding inside asteroids functioning as lookouts is cheating. (perpetrated by SKV allies)

-Players laying mines inside of stations (rendering them indestructable) to prevent docking is cheating. (perpetrated by Westcular)

-Using plugins to fire weapons and launch your ship is not a cheat.

-Similarily, using plugins to launch alt accounts with goods that then get destroyed in a conquerable station (i.e. automated transporting of commodities) is not cheating.

-/vote muting people for RP is abuse. (first perpetrated by SKV allies upon a TGFT member, then perpetrated back by TGFT in response, further instigated and organized by Estrian Prosis on multiple subsequent occasions)

-PK stat padding is cheating. (perpetrated by Sieger, and alleged to have been perpetrated by Estrian Prosis prior to Sieger)

-Using free accounts to help strip mine is cheating. (admitted activity by Westacular)

-Duel Ladder padding is cheating. (perpetrated by Estrian Prosis)

-Killing people with bots in a manner which skirts faction penalties is cheating. (perpetrated by all of SKV and westacular)

Do you see now? It's difficult for you to understand the concept, but it's actually ok to admit you (and your allies) are an equal player in the cheating racket. I don't deny TGFT members have done wrong. You shouldn't deny that your allies have done wrong. The only reason you do deny any wrong doing is because it goes against your RP, which currently is to "utterly destroy TGFT at any cost". Your RP is destructive to the game, and is a hugely damaging time-suck for the devs to deal with.

Your problem is that it's simply not enough to shoot defenseless traders in the game. You need to destroy their spirit as well, which is where your propaganda cry-fest comes into play. Shame on you.

Harpo, I agree the situation with kbireta was not helpful and TGFT leadership could have played a larger role in mitigating the damage. However, it pales in comparison to the actions of Estrian Prosis. When contacted on multiple occasions about his unprovoked aggression, the message they recieved back (when they still had an NAP in place) was that ITAN could not control their individual members. The difference between the two situations of inaction is that TGFT contacted ITAN directly and privately about Estrian whereas with kbireta, no guild leaders or individuals contacted TGFT leadership (to my knowledge).

As for being attacked by TGFT now, it may have something to do with the absence of any NAP, which has been cancelled by ITAN. And it may also have something to do with ongoing aggression against TGFT by other members of ITAN and their known, non-alt-seperation-practicing, non-ITAN alts. Choosing to treat individuals by their guild affiliation rather than personal experience is not a new concept in VO. Normally that kind of thing is avoided on a guild level by having treaties in place. This is, of course, all offered from my perspective as observer as the commander of the Phoenix Alliance.

If you are concerend with being attacked by TGFT members, perhaps you should bring it up directly with TGFT rather than on this forum.

Lastly, since it is widely known that AnyX tracks the locations of buddies, many ITAN members were removed from lists out of precaution given the escalation of events.

-Docked players functioning as lookouts are not a cheat.
If docked bots are equipped with TGFT utilities which gather all data on the sector and communicate via private server to deliver those information in real time to TGFT members then yes - it is cheating.

-Players hiding inside asteroids functioning as lookouts is cheating. (perpetrated by SKV allies)
A player who did this on a few occasions has been informed by the devs that they are working on mitigating this problem (possible exploit?) and was asked to refrain from doing so in the future.
I admit I was unaware that this might be an exploit and advised everyone to not try to do it.

-Players laying mines inside of stations (rendering them indestructable) to prevent docking is cheating. (perpetrated by Westcular)
I don't know how that can be done but if it actually can be done that is within current game mechanics.
Mines are not indestructible, you can target them, shoot them, kill them with other mines, etc

-Using plugins to fire weapons and launch your ship is not a cheat.
I disagree, this is automation that gives advantage in gameplay to the ones who have that plug-in

-Similarily, using plugins to launch alt accounts with goods that then get destroyed in a conquerable station (i.e. automated transporting of commodities) is not cheating.
I disagree, this is automation that gives advantage in gameplay to the ones who have that plug-in

-/vote muting people for RP is abuse. (first perpetrated by SKV allies upon a TGFT member, then perpetrated back by TGFT in response)
kbireta was not muted by SKV, he was muted by various players for being obnoxious on public chat.
TGFT retaliation was a mass vote muting campaign aimed at SKV without any proper cause - not a single word was spoken in general chat that would have warrantied such action.

-PK stat padding is cheating. (perpetrated by Sieger, and alleged to have been perpetrated by Estrian Prosis prior to Sieger)
If there are doubts about EP acting in the same way as Sieger, I am sure devs will investigate and make their ruling. I am not convinced this is so.

-Using free accounts to help strip mine is cheating. (admitted activity by Westacular)
Since when is group mining cheating? We used to group mine in 2004 to get our mining licenses up faster since group mining gives better xp.

-Duel Ladder padding is cheating. (perpetrated by Estrian Prosis)
I would leave the judgement about this to the devs. Sieger killing 2 of his guild mates in duels over 180 times stinks to high heaven too, especially bearing in mind that those are the only duels those 2 players participated in and that their deaths in duels with Sieger constitute 3/4 of their total in game deaths.

Anyway, I don't see me or my alts in this list of yours.
I am not defending anyones 'questionable' behavior especially not my guild mates so where is my duplicity?

I am not defending anyones 'questionable' behavior especially not my guild mates so where is my duplicity?

Except that you just wrote an entire post doing just that? What the fuck is wrong with you, dude.

I am sorry we must be reading different threads.

I gave my opinion on all points you raised and clearly said in a few of them that if some actions are questionable, I would leave the judgement to the devs.
And btw, 3/4 of your post is related to TGFT cheats and exploits.

There must be something wrong with me, I don't see how am I defending any one of my guild mates.

There must be something wrong with me, I don't see how am I defending any one of my guild mates.

Now we are getting somewhere!

If you are concerend with being attacked by TGFT members, perhaps you should bring it up directly with TGFT rather than on this forum.

As I wrote previously I tried on two occasions via PM and a number of times I can't recall via 444 (I think two or three) and was ignored. I have not tried again since, nor do I plan to. I'll just add individuals to my 'bad dog' list as they come up. My message here is not a complaint or an attempt to reach TGFT leadership on this matter, it was info for Boneyard about not everything in TGFT being all righteous and just.

Lastly, since it is widely known that AnyX tracks the locations of buddies, many ITAN members were removed from lists out of precaution given the escalation of events.

I don't know this feature of anyx to be true, but I know people believe it's true, so lets suppose for the moment it is. There is a checkbox next to names in the buddy list that control whether or not your position is revealed in the list. I can't imagine that long time players of VO don't know about that checkbox.

I remember one time a long time ago when I was the problem. I killed players while they exploited "bot cracks" I killed players while they exploited "cargo duplication bugs" - I killed players and stole money from players who considered themselves "above the law".

Do you need me to bring up examples wally? Because I will. The only person who has been immune to my attacks against exploiting bugs has been Ecka himself. When these bugs are used to his benefit he will use them. He made a SHITLOAD of in game credits by abusing the same system tumblemonster did but he cried foul once he realised tumble was better than him at exploiting the same stuff.

Ecka himself has said (paraphrased) - "I do not care about ethics, I will use any means that the game lets me to make billions of credits". The difference is that we are now being vocal about these said exploits and they have been changed. Why you are still on the side of the biggest fag in the universe is beyond me. Tumblemonster got all his ill gotten credits removed. I made sure of that because I like balance. Did Ecka even though he used the same exploits? No.

And I bet he will stay out of this thread because of that fact...

Go fuck yourself wally, because that is the only satisfaction you will get from me. See the newspost for more info.

Go shove it up yer ass matey, because nobody here is buying your crap.

Yoda,

I remember when I was new going to edras and shooting bots from a crack, and you would come after us. I thought that was great fun. I thought you were just going there because that's where we noobs were to hunt, I didn't realize we were upsetting you. If it's any consolation I don't do it anymore, nor do I bring noobs to cracks.

Harpo

Cracks do not work anymore. Try it, the bots will sneak in. :) Also every bot used to try get you once in a crack. It was fun, cos you all used to cuddle up together shooting them. A few rockets sorted you out tho! heh

lol yoda...

@ harpo, I used to be in ITAN and used AnyX so I know for a fact that it is true. You know this. Even if the location isn't shared, sometimes it is preferential for there also to be no knowledge of whether or not people are online. Obviously I can't speak for the people who removed you from their lists. Only offering possibilities.

Cracks do not work anymore. Try it, the bots will sneak in. :) Also every bot used to try get you once in a crack. It was fun, cos you all used to cuddle up together shooting them. A few rockets sorted you out tho! heh

I remember, we died a lot. But one time I didn't fire and waited for you to show up. Only worked twice, never again :)

I used to be in ITAN and used AnyX so I know for a fact that it is true. You know this

I don't know this. I'm willing to be educated. I'll look in the code myself.