I'd like to start a discussion in the VO community about how alternate characters fit into the concept of role-playing. Specifically, I'd like to see if there is any concensus, or if we can reach a concensus, about when it is and isn't considered proper role-playing to use multiple characters for a single goal.

One of the great benefits of alternate characters is that it allows you to play many different roles in the Vendetta universe. One day you might feel like being a peaceful trader, the next you might feel like blowing up peaceful traders and stealing their cargo, and the next you might feel like being a nationalistic hero bent on destroying the mortal enemy of your nation. This escapism is part of why we play games like Vendetta.

In the purest interpretation of role-playing, each character a person plays is a distinct entity whose actions, motivations, and personality are completely seperate from each other. Certainly, this is how the game mechanics work with regard to standing, experience, money, etc. In fact, Vendetta does a pretty good job of hiding the identity of players, such that you can't easily tell which characters are being played by the same person unless they come out and admit it.

(I realise that some people out there are consumed with finding out who everyone's alts are, and that topic is worthy of a different thread if someone wants to discuss it. Please keep this thread focused on the role-playing aspect of alternate characters.)

On the flip side, consider the following example: A low level UIT character is killed by a mid-level Serco character. The player that got killed gets mad, logs out, comes back as a high level Itani character with access to better equipment, and blows the Serco character away. I hope we can all agree that this example represents abuse of an alternate character. (Please refrain from making stupid Serco vs Itani vs UIT jokes.)

Somewhere in the middle, we get to things such as using alternate characters as spies. It is unclear to me whether or not this is something that should be considered good role-playing or an abuse of the alternate character system, and this is where I'd really like to focus the discussion.

On the one hand, if someone gets a fake ID, slaps on a fake moustache, and adopts a strange accent, then infiltrates a group of players that would normally not welcome the player, that could be considered great role playing. If anyone didn't read Borb's post "The Personal Log Of Lahmi Stukov" at http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/10780, it's totally worth the time. The writing is fantastic and the story is very entertaining.

On the other hand, an alt spy means using a completely new character to achieve something they couldn't if they were limited by the race, standing, experience, money, etc. of the character they actually indend to benefit. This could be considered "cheating" as far as role-playing goes, because it violates the idea that each character is a distinct entity.

Lastly, even if one feels that using an alternate name/race/etc. as part of a disguise constitutes a proper form of role-playing, it could be argued that part of role-playing "fairly" means that there is a reasonable chance for the ruse to be discovered. Given that players can have multiple accounts, computers, email addresses, etc. it is almost impossible to verify whether or not two characters belong to the same player. (And yes, I am aware of a single player that used multiple accounts and email addresses to try to make their alts seem unique, so this is not just a theoretical situation. No, I won't name the player.) Given this context, do people still consider using alternates as a role-played deception "fair"?

Please discuss.

I feel that Borb's particular use of alts is one of the best (if not the best) that I've ever seen--all of those alts were the same person, just taking on different jobs. I personally have nothing against those who use alts, but I do agree the idea of playing in a low-level character, dying, and then coming back in a high-level alt and killing your attacker is particularly bad form.

Speaking from my character's persepective, I only openly attack players who have offended me in some serious manner--otherwise, I generally keep to myself (I chat readily of course) doing my own thing. I always keep a sort of list in my head on the people that I interact with and how they stand with me, much like the faction standing bits. Only a few players have made it to KOS with me; in fact, I can count the number on one hand. A few more are 3AC (Avoid At All Costs), but most are in the dislike to respect range.

Because I only use one character for actual gameplay (I run the Universal Information Database bot), I try to offend as few players as possible--I have failed a few times, I admit, but hey, nobody can please everyone--and have a fun time playing because of it. I personally don't have a need for an alt anyway; I'm one combat level, one trade level, and one Admire rating away from having access to all the ships in the game. If I wanted to get into PvP, I would find a reason that suits my character's background and continue using my character.

Great topic, Screwball. I personally don't like alts, for the same reasons you listed when you discussed how they're abused. I wish people would focus more time on developing one character than having multiple ones. But hey, what can you do, right? The game allows it and you can't really change that. And I know there are practical reasons for having them (family members wanting to play, having a guild with a bank, etc.). But for the most part I'm not too crazy about players who have tons of alts.

I'll personally stick to one character for various reasons:

1. I don't like the deception of having well-known players or vets log in under different names. It just seems cowardly to have to hide behind a mask like that. It confuses the hell out of me and it destroys any sense of trust I had with that person. I don't know how else to describe it, but it just annoys the hell out of me. Probably because most of the time it's abused.

2. As you described so well, I too don't like players that switch characters just to gather support for an attack, after having their character die by your hands. It's a selfish thing to do, to hop into another character just to get other people involved for some dumb thing you did on an alt. Or even worse, having to spy on another guild or group by hopping between alts.

3. Even if I were interested in creating multiple characters, I wouldn't have enough time to develop each one. I really don't know how others can even manage that. Do they play 24/7? I don't know about you but I just like to stick with one character only and go from there. I guess I'm just not as crazy as other people are with those whole RPing thing. But I like to have just a little bit of background and reputation tossed in there.

Well I guess I kinda have to post in a topic that mentions my name so much. :D

I feel that all alts should and are linked to the person behind them, I feel they are as my logs say just that person with a new ID. The resons I like this is as I said in the IA-VPR post:

"In the absence of being able bribe nations, buying goods from any nation on the black market, and having false papers, my alts are needed for me to RP properly as my current role. I'm sure once we get nationless nations and the other things I have outlined above I will be the first person to get rid of my alts."

I think alts are when used right just another vary good way to RP. All of my alts are me and I use them as such.

did the people you join knew that it was Borb and not somebody else?

if so, then i shut up now. If not then you are not roleplaying you but someone else. Which de facto hsould have no bearance on any of your other chars (aka a new person not a new role for the same person). And any information gathered from one person should not influence the other.

PS: i had some time put into apost in the other one... but seeing somebody locked it I'll just let it go.

Rene, the fact that the alt is using fake papers does not make that alt a seperate entity, it just makes it the original character with an appearance of being a seperate entity.

If the alt of character "X" has papers that say he/she is "Y" then there is no reason for the rest of the universe to know that Y is X undercover. That's the purpose of a fake identity. You're not supposed to know. You're not supposed to find out, unless the original character deems it appropriate to reveal the alt's true identity.

Like I said, in my book it is. But that is just a difference in opinion. Epecially since the person would obtain these false papers by buying them not by starting from scratch all over again.

That and that alone is the reason why i consider in this game the alts to be seperate entities... since at the moment you can't change your name in something else.

If there was ever an introduction of an item that changes the name of the flier to something of his choice (example: I buy a fake paper ID which changes Renegade ++RIP++ to Red Eyes Charlie for 1 week which for example if you take the spyline of missions taking the missions will not have the negative effect of doing them but will have the positive effect of doing them) and changes the accomplishments between certain brackets then i could agree to your stance. But as long as that is impossible and you need to create the character from scratch and do the work from getting them to the same level as your previous one then this is and will always remain a seperate entitie for me. Aka a new person. Not a new role for the same person. But maybe that is only me...

Borb, your concept of alts as all representing the same role-played character, but with different names and faces, is interesting. It seems that you agree with certain other players about role-playing only one character, but your method differs.

Speaking for myself, I have a few alts that I almost never play, but they are totally different characters and have different motivations. It gives me the opportunity to do something different when I want a change, or login to an account where things are quiet and nobody knows me, or get some Neut 3's, or whatever. To me, this is why alts exist.

I have seen the many iterations of Borb (Borb II, Borb the Second, etc.) around the universe and they all seem to act as one. On the other hand, Lahmi was clearly acting as someone else until the truth was revealed by Borb.

I'm curious as to everyone's opinion on the "fairness" aspect of this. That is, how does the difficulty in determining a player's identity compare with the necessity of using an alt to go under cover?

Something that I don't remember, but might be worth discussing, is whether or not Borb logged in as Borb during his two month stint as Lahmi. If the Borb name and face were totally absent during that time, does that constitute role-playing across alts "fairly"?

Lastly, what if Borb had used a completely different player account to hide the identity of Lahmi? Would that cross a line that the other actions didn't?

To answer the question of "did Borb log in when being Lahmi." Yes I did I had to talk to the other BLAK guys and find out what was going on. Ask around I knew quite a few people saw me do it. This was all weeks before I came out so to speak.

Now then in RL if I wanted to get a new ID and start a new life I could do so. Lahmi was me in hiding and underground so I feel it was all vary good RPing as he was still Borb, just Borb in hiding. For the sake of the RP Lahmi had to act as some one else.

Just to clear that up for the record.

Borb you aren't taking into account anything from what I was saying. If you buy a fake id etc, then you don't start from scratch again. A fake identity, past etc is provided to you once you buy it. The withness protection formulas make that more then evident I guess...

Stop picking on Borb, he is one and only master RPer in this game and uses his alts in the best possible way.
Writes great stories and makes this game more interesting.
We need more ppl like Borb.

/givecredit "Borb The Second":)

I think I use my alts in a similar fashion to Borb with one exception. One of my alts was made specifically to infiltrate a guild. The reason for this was:

1) Because of some complaints from some members of the guild about piracy.
2) Because that guild had become very isolated from the rest of Vendetta.

My alt was used to get some perspective about what they were complaining about. After a couple of weeks I told the guild who I was and made some suggestions to them. They had no hard feelings and I've had good relations with that guild ever since.

As for the rest of my alts, they're all me, well except for that psychotic BLAK Bank character. That guy is just a menace to society.

I actually agree with Renegade: making an alt with the purposes of deceiving those around and infiltrating a guild is more akin to an exploit than true RPing. A good RPer would have kept using the Borb character, have him go through a believable change in attitude in order (over a period of time) to get accepted into the guild he wished to infiltrate, and then proceed to obtain the information he wished.

His deception was not RPing, it was a REAL one that could only be done by exploiting the alts like he did. If the information were to give him an unfair advantage in the game, I'd call it cheating; since it doesn't, it was simply a deception that could result in some hurt feelings at most; however, to call RPing and then praise him for it, well... WTF?!

as long as alts aren't informational relays only, I have absolutly no problem with them. in BLAK we keep track of alts (which guild doesn't) as best we can, and we try to keep tabs. but, we try very hard to _not_ use this information ingame. there are a lot of alts out there, some are pure RP alts where the player wishes to have distinct identities just as other alts are "just another name".

I used to dislike the deceit myself, but especially after Lahmi I must admit that alt do bring life to the game. also, it can easily help balance the game, it was great to have a good and fair fighter to fight against, and I'll miss having Lahmi around on the other side of the fence.

some guilds are much more geared towards RL friends than RP characters, so how guilds deal with them depend on how they do their thing. if you're a guild who mine, your primary concern should be if your members contribute to your goals. if a member tells pirates where you're mining, that's bad alt usage, and if a member spills good ore positions, that's a bad alt usage as well. if neither of these happen, why care if the character is an alt?

Well not really rene, if I had gotten a new ID and started out as if I was a brand new pilot (as I did with Lahmi to keep questions down about my back ground) I would have needed to get all my levs back.

As the system stands currently, I feel that an alt is a separate person unrelated to the other characters the player operates. Information learned as one should not be used by the other characters. I am in two guilds, I would never betray either.

My $0.02

--Harpo

So if one guild was to say be a trading guild. And the other was a combat guild. And lets say your alt in the combat guild needed money. Would you use the information gained from your trader to use a good route? Maybe mine some good ore?

My point is I can see no honist way for the alts to be unrelated as in the end they are related by the person behind them. Thus all of mine are one in the same.

The only honest way to go about this is to simply have one character. To think that you can use multiple chars without exploiting prior knowledge on one or the other is pretty silly. It's going to happen no matter what. The extent to which some knowledge gained may have an impact may vary, but it'll always be there.

As Borb II pointed out you're not just going to forget about a good trade route or a great place to mine, from knowledge you gained in an alt character. That sort of stuff will always be there in your mind. Is that something you're going to voluntarily block from your mind? Why would you shoot yourself in the foot like that? It's just not going to happen for most players.

But anyway, as I said before I think alt characters definitely have a place in the game (i.e. banks, scripted bots, family members). But beyond that you should be prepared to run into a little friction among other players in the game, as they begin to find out your true identity. I hate to say it but there are several great reasons not to trust people with alt characters.

For once I agree with some thing Arolte posted on the forums. I RP and not so honest person in VO so I figure false papers and stuff are vary Borbish.

But yeah the only pure way to do this is to only have one char.

i think alts are great and everyone should stop worrying about them!!!

so if someone wants to spend 24/7 playing vendetta, they paid 10$ and they can do that.

that being said IM NOT AN ALT AAAAAAAAAAAUHG!!!!!!!!!

or am i?