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I wouldn't trust Strategy First, especially how they screwed over CRS/WW2OL...
How did they screw it over?
They pushed the game out before it was released, and after it was released they didn't do alot of help. In fact I think Strategy First just got out of filing Chapter 11.
Lets just hope Guild is strong enough to say "NO" when Strategy First trys to force them to release the game before its finished.
And if ST (Stratgy First) pushes guild to release it, we'll back up guild and say the game is not ready for release... and it sucks atm... so guild has to work on it more :P.
And if ST (Stratgy First) pushes guild to release it, we'll back up guild and say the game is not ready for release... and it sucks atm... so guild has to work on it more :P.
Under the worst case scenario I think Guild can still support themselves with an online trial version download option, like many other MMORPG developers do. No need to panic. If they can pull it off successfully, good. If they can't, there are alternatives. At least they've got more funding along the way.
Well I just hope SF doesn't try to screw Guild over like they did CRS.
John's not stupid. I'm sure he's allowed for plenty of time to release in the contract.
I wouldn't be too sure. Remember the number of successful (or otherwise) games that Guild (and by extension the employees of Guild Software) have under their belt. They have a grand total of 0. That means no bargaining power, nobody else to call and no negotiating.
Strategy First was doing them a favor by publishing the game, and that they set the terms. Mr. Bergman may not have liked some of the terms, but he would have signed, because if y'all remember a few months back, Guild was announcing imminent close-of-business. Then Strategy First swoops down and rescues them. They've put five years of their life into the project, and they don't want to give that up any more than you or I would. If a publisher came in to save my game, I'd sign, and damned be the terms or the fool who warns me that the terms are unduly restrictive.
Software publishing is a business, and it's naive to think of it as anything else. Strategy First is not a charity, they're not an endowment for the software arts. They're a business out to make a buck or two million. If Vendetta takes off successfully, they'll stick with it and market it to high heaven. If it doesn't catch on in the trial period of say, three months or so, they'll cut bait, dump all significant funding and leave Guild hanging. It's what any smart business would do. Heartless but efficient.
I've seen it happen before, when Tactical Ops failed to blossom in stores. Within a month of the InfoGrames takeover, emails to the devs on any subject whatsoever were no longer returned, citing "contract confidentiality". The game was renamed "Assault on Terror", apparently a tasteless attempt to play off the September 11th attack. Patches were no longer weekly, but instead came every three months. The reason was "InfoGrames internal testing", but the patches weren't any more stable than before. We (the community play-testers) fumed, imagining (correctly we later learned) a single guy playing skirmish matches over and over, sending maybe one report in a month. Core employees on the development were fired over disagreements with the parent company and started up a website detailing the shabby state of affairs at Kamehan (the developer)'s office as they struggled under unrealistic deadlines and inflexible management. And then came a buggy and nearly unplayable release. Patches were announced but never delivered. Within a month the game was in the bargain bin. Their domain is offline, the community disbanded and all but forgotten.
I don't want this to happen and I don't think anyone in the community or Guild does either. The trick is to find out how to prevent it. Let's start like this:
-Strategy First is a publisher and therefore
-Strategy First is a business and therefore
-They don't give a damn about the game except where
-The game serves to enlarge their profits. Furthermore
-They don't give a damn about the community except where
-The community's independent, unpaid advocacy serves to enlarge their profits.
-Vendetta Online is an MMORPG, therefore
-Vendetta Online depends upon a community for its success. No community, no game.
There are two ways of growing a community. The first is to advertise, which we know that Strategy First isn't going to do much of, because Guild is unproven as a developer. They don't want to sink more money into this game than they have to in case it flops.
The second way to grow the community is to rely upon word of mouth. Were I a cynic, I would say that the primary unstated reason for having a two-year-long open beta is to grow a strong core community prior to release. But I'm not a cynic, am I? Anyhow, if that was their aim, they've been successful. We're loyal and there's enough of us that Guild could launch in six months or so and have a stable community. However, survival of the game isn't a priority to Strategy First (see bullet points three and four above) once they recoup their initial capital in the product. They're not going to advertise any more than they have to, and Guild sure doesn't have the bucks to do it. So to try and wrap things up,
What we have is a cool game. It looks cool to us, it sounds cool to us, it's cross-platform and it's realistically (from everything we've seen) six to eight months from a stable, enjoyable, playable and complete release.
There's no story beyond some obscure and secret (but ostensibly extensive) document. No universe (supposedly coming and giant and complete, excuse me, but I'm from Missouri. Show me.) No final music or sound or physics or artwork or models or interface or anything.
They're supposed to release in a month. A month before release, you're supposed to be feature-complete and entering final testing, not stockpiling rusty metal in the office to record sound "some time in the future". You're not supposed to be introducing an entirely new navigation system and gigantic universe. That was supposed to be done months ago if Strategy First's schedule is correct. Frankly, and to sum up this whole gigantic essay, we're either been playing a test so far removed from the reality of the "real game" (which is not what I believe to be the case), or Guild is headed for a massive train wreck of a release.
What we need is to do what we can among ourselves to make Vendetta Online attractive to newcomers in the interim. The game is not going to be the main selling point as things stand today because as far as we know, there's not much there. Advertising is not going to be the main selling point as things stand today, because there's barely going to be any. The community is going to have to sell Vendetta. We're going to need to be welcoming and enthusiastic and engaging. We must roleplay and be involved and dedicated. We must not be elitist or rude or unhelpful, or we'll be undoing everything Guild has labored so hard for five years to build. The success of Vendetta Online is up to us.
Strategy First was doing them a favor by publishing the game, and that they set the terms. Mr. Bergman may not have liked some of the terms, but he would have signed, because if y'all remember a few months back, Guild was announcing imminent close-of-business. Then Strategy First swoops down and rescues them. They've put five years of their life into the project, and they don't want to give that up any more than you or I would. If a publisher came in to save my game, I'd sign, and damned be the terms or the fool who warns me that the terms are unduly restrictive.
Software publishing is a business, and it's naive to think of it as anything else. Strategy First is not a charity, they're not an endowment for the software arts. They're a business out to make a buck or two million. If Vendetta takes off successfully, they'll stick with it and market it to high heaven. If it doesn't catch on in the trial period of say, three months or so, they'll cut bait, dump all significant funding and leave Guild hanging. It's what any smart business would do. Heartless but efficient.
I've seen it happen before, when Tactical Ops failed to blossom in stores. Within a month of the InfoGrames takeover, emails to the devs on any subject whatsoever were no longer returned, citing "contract confidentiality". The game was renamed "Assault on Terror", apparently a tasteless attempt to play off the September 11th attack. Patches were no longer weekly, but instead came every three months. The reason was "InfoGrames internal testing", but the patches weren't any more stable than before. We (the community play-testers) fumed, imagining (correctly we later learned) a single guy playing skirmish matches over and over, sending maybe one report in a month. Core employees on the development were fired over disagreements with the parent company and started up a website detailing the shabby state of affairs at Kamehan (the developer)'s office as they struggled under unrealistic deadlines and inflexible management. And then came a buggy and nearly unplayable release. Patches were announced but never delivered. Within a month the game was in the bargain bin. Their domain is offline, the community disbanded and all but forgotten.
I don't want this to happen and I don't think anyone in the community or Guild does either. The trick is to find out how to prevent it. Let's start like this:
-Strategy First is a publisher and therefore
-Strategy First is a business and therefore
-They don't give a damn about the game except where
-The game serves to enlarge their profits. Furthermore
-They don't give a damn about the community except where
-The community's independent, unpaid advocacy serves to enlarge their profits.
-Vendetta Online is an MMORPG, therefore
-Vendetta Online depends upon a community for its success. No community, no game.
There are two ways of growing a community. The first is to advertise, which we know that Strategy First isn't going to do much of, because Guild is unproven as a developer. They don't want to sink more money into this game than they have to in case it flops.
The second way to grow the community is to rely upon word of mouth. Were I a cynic, I would say that the primary unstated reason for having a two-year-long open beta is to grow a strong core community prior to release. But I'm not a cynic, am I? Anyhow, if that was their aim, they've been successful. We're loyal and there's enough of us that Guild could launch in six months or so and have a stable community. However, survival of the game isn't a priority to Strategy First (see bullet points three and four above) once they recoup their initial capital in the product. They're not going to advertise any more than they have to, and Guild sure doesn't have the bucks to do it. So to try and wrap things up,
What we have is a cool game. It looks cool to us, it sounds cool to us, it's cross-platform and it's realistically (from everything we've seen) six to eight months from a stable, enjoyable, playable and complete release.
There's no story beyond some obscure and secret (but ostensibly extensive) document. No universe (supposedly coming and giant and complete, excuse me, but I'm from Missouri. Show me.) No final music or sound or physics or artwork or models or interface or anything.
They're supposed to release in a month. A month before release, you're supposed to be feature-complete and entering final testing, not stockpiling rusty metal in the office to record sound "some time in the future". You're not supposed to be introducing an entirely new navigation system and gigantic universe. That was supposed to be done months ago if Strategy First's schedule is correct. Frankly, and to sum up this whole gigantic essay, we're either been playing a test so far removed from the reality of the "real game" (which is not what I believe to be the case), or Guild is headed for a massive train wreck of a release.
What we need is to do what we can among ourselves to make Vendetta Online attractive to newcomers in the interim. The game is not going to be the main selling point as things stand today because as far as we know, there's not much there. Advertising is not going to be the main selling point as things stand today, because there's barely going to be any. The community is going to have to sell Vendetta. We're going to need to be welcoming and enthusiastic and engaging. We must roleplay and be involved and dedicated. We must not be elitist or rude or unhelpful, or we'll be undoing everything Guild has labored so hard for five years to build. The success of Vendetta Online is up to us.
Well it's sad but it's true. I've beta tested before and I've seen the conflicts that often occur between the developers and the publishers. As ctishman said, it's a business. Most publishers try to set unrealistic release dates, pay little attention to loyal fans, and often pull questionable tactics on the developers.
Not to badmouth Strategy First or anyone else, but publishers are by no means a cakewalk in the gaming industry. Getting accepted by a publisher itself is considered half the battle. The other half lies in whether they'll actually get the game out the door and make some money off of it.
That's part of the reason why some of the best games are published by their own developers. Unfortunately not everyone has the manpower or money to do so. If they did, we'd probably see a lot less buggy and half-assed games in the market today. Luckily with the power of updates, patches, and expansion packs, those problems can be alleviated.
That's not to say that all publishers are bad. When a good one is found and you get the support you need, it can be quite a pleasant (and profitable) experience. I hope Mr. Bergman settled for the contract he got. I hope Vendetta becomes a success and sells well. Let's hope they accomplish what they've worked so hard for all these years.
Not to badmouth Strategy First or anyone else, but publishers are by no means a cakewalk in the gaming industry. Getting accepted by a publisher itself is considered half the battle. The other half lies in whether they'll actually get the game out the door and make some money off of it.
That's part of the reason why some of the best games are published by their own developers. Unfortunately not everyone has the manpower or money to do so. If they did, we'd probably see a lot less buggy and half-assed games in the market today. Luckily with the power of updates, patches, and expansion packs, those problems can be alleviated.
That's not to say that all publishers are bad. When a good one is found and you get the support you need, it can be quite a pleasant (and profitable) experience. I hope Mr. Bergman settled for the contract he got. I hope Vendetta becomes a success and sells well. Let's hope they accomplish what they've worked so hard for all these years.
Wouldn't the downsides of an early release be somewhat counteracted by the Vendetta Update Utility? I mean, bugfixes/patches/etc are automagically installed with pretty much no user intervention.
Okay, a premature release may give a bad initial image, but that could be overshadowed by any improvements made after release. And how long has Vendetta been Beta tested by real players? A couple of years now?
Okay, a premature release may give a bad initial image, but that could be overshadowed by any improvements made after release. And how long has Vendetta been Beta tested by real players? A couple of years now?
What guild has on their hands is a big CF (Cluster F**k).
Guild is very near reliant on Strategy First for funding and publishing while Strategy First, while having sunk in some money, has nowhere near the investment in Vendetta that our Devs do.
As Arolte and ctishman have said, SF will cut Guild lose in a heartbeat if they don't see some dollar signs comming in. SF is the typical buisness, all profit no soul. SF isn't some great game charity that just gives money away to developers that have an imagination, they want a functional product ASAP.
I agree with what ctishman said about Release. The entire idea is a massive CF. Right now we should be concentrating on stabilizing our working systems with new Nav and Galaxy comming online 2-4 months AFTER release.
Right now Guild runs the risk of releasing a game that is at best 1/2 functional with new, and might I add, UNTESTED, systems that could potentially cause the game to lag, or any number of errors that ultimately drives AWAY new customers to different games rather than await patches.
I for one, hope Mr. Bergman did not just settle for the contract SF presented but actually pressed for what he wanted. However, I fear that with all the current errors (faction standing, new Nav, new Universe, licenses, etc etc) that Guild is overtaxing their already strained deadline by continuing to release new information packages.
I support guild, but with their rush to get the game ready for release, the one most critical aspect escaped their minds, they need to actually get the game WORKING, not just running, but actually working. And currently with their apparent disabandon for logical ideas they are going to ultimately hit the fabled Malcom Effect.
TO GUILD: Developers, I whole heartedly support Vendetta and have been a very vocal member of the community when I thought that something needed to be addressed and now again I must say something.
I HIGHLY advise holding release of the new universe and navigatonal system until after release when the game is stabilized and running smoothly. Then you can announce to the public that a new and potentally dangerous new galaxy is being introduced and release it then, after Vendetta has a strong user base and is prepared to take the hit once she's soaring.
Look at it like an airplane, would you rather lose control at 2000ft or 25000ft? Probably 25000 so you have more leniancy.
Guild is very near reliant on Strategy First for funding and publishing while Strategy First, while having sunk in some money, has nowhere near the investment in Vendetta that our Devs do.
As Arolte and ctishman have said, SF will cut Guild lose in a heartbeat if they don't see some dollar signs comming in. SF is the typical buisness, all profit no soul. SF isn't some great game charity that just gives money away to developers that have an imagination, they want a functional product ASAP.
I agree with what ctishman said about Release. The entire idea is a massive CF. Right now we should be concentrating on stabilizing our working systems with new Nav and Galaxy comming online 2-4 months AFTER release.
Right now Guild runs the risk of releasing a game that is at best 1/2 functional with new, and might I add, UNTESTED, systems that could potentially cause the game to lag, or any number of errors that ultimately drives AWAY new customers to different games rather than await patches.
I for one, hope Mr. Bergman did not just settle for the contract SF presented but actually pressed for what he wanted. However, I fear that with all the current errors (faction standing, new Nav, new Universe, licenses, etc etc) that Guild is overtaxing their already strained deadline by continuing to release new information packages.
I support guild, but with their rush to get the game ready for release, the one most critical aspect escaped their minds, they need to actually get the game WORKING, not just running, but actually working. And currently with their apparent disabandon for logical ideas they are going to ultimately hit the fabled Malcom Effect.
TO GUILD: Developers, I whole heartedly support Vendetta and have been a very vocal member of the community when I thought that something needed to be addressed and now again I must say something.
I HIGHLY advise holding release of the new universe and navigatonal system until after release when the game is stabilized and running smoothly. Then you can announce to the public that a new and potentally dangerous new galaxy is being introduced and release it then, after Vendetta has a strong user base and is prepared to take the hit once she's soaring.
Look at it like an airplane, would you rather lose control at 2000ft or 25000ft? Probably 25000 so you have more leniancy.
Um. No.
No possible way the current universe can support more than 60 users. No. Think n00bs are going to hang around and get paid to be griefed? No. Your suggestion for a "fix" (where none is really needed) would cause more problems than it'd fix. (doesnt really fix any) We're here to test, and that's what we'll do. Nobody seems to understand that we test the game SYSTEMS, not the content. Sure, we need to advance in some levels, test out missions, carry cargo, whatnot. We're NOT here to make sure the tri-gauss valk still works. We know it does. We don't have to test every single sector in the nearly 8,000 that we're getting, we have to test the new navigational system, iron out some bugs, and move from there. We test the SYSTEMS, not the content. (IMHO "content" really blows right now, but they're working on the systems, and the content that is in place right now is largely a placeholder) Example: the new Drone I, II, and etc bots. When we started, we'd have to chase them all over the sector just to be able to shoot, they'd always run, and would almost never shoot back. Are we here to test those bots and make sure the textures are wrapped around them correctly? No, we're here to make sure the bots are behaving normally, and to inform the devs if they're not. System before Content. </beatdeadhorse>
As for the whole contract deal, it matters not if we sit here and go "oh me, oh my, the end of Vendetta is nigh" but actually get off our asses posting in the forum, and report the damn bugs! You, reading this, could be finding a new bug, that would accelerate the development process another 30 minutes! A'int much, but if we all work together, this'll help Guild save _tons_ of time. You want to help John, Andy, Ray and Waylon make their deadlines? Seek and report bugs! There's really nothing else we can do.
No possible way the current universe can support more than 60 users. No. Think n00bs are going to hang around and get paid to be griefed? No. Your suggestion for a "fix" (where none is really needed) would cause more problems than it'd fix. (doesnt really fix any) We're here to test, and that's what we'll do. Nobody seems to understand that we test the game SYSTEMS, not the content. Sure, we need to advance in some levels, test out missions, carry cargo, whatnot. We're NOT here to make sure the tri-gauss valk still works. We know it does. We don't have to test every single sector in the nearly 8,000 that we're getting, we have to test the new navigational system, iron out some bugs, and move from there. We test the SYSTEMS, not the content. (IMHO "content" really blows right now, but they're working on the systems, and the content that is in place right now is largely a placeholder) Example: the new Drone I, II, and etc bots. When we started, we'd have to chase them all over the sector just to be able to shoot, they'd always run, and would almost never shoot back. Are we here to test those bots and make sure the textures are wrapped around them correctly? No, we're here to make sure the bots are behaving normally, and to inform the devs if they're not. System before Content. </beatdeadhorse>
As for the whole contract deal, it matters not if we sit here and go "oh me, oh my, the end of Vendetta is nigh" but actually get off our asses posting in the forum, and report the damn bugs! You, reading this, could be finding a new bug, that would accelerate the development process another 30 minutes! A'int much, but if we all work together, this'll help Guild save _tons_ of time. You want to help John, Andy, Ray and Waylon make their deadlines? Seek and report bugs! There's really nothing else we can do.
Guys, enough with the false doomsday reports. The above posts were more of a reminder of the harsh realities which developers face when they find a publisher. It was by no means a grim prediction about Vendetta's future specifically. Strategy First may have had some problems in the past (what publisher hasn't?), but that doesn't mean Vendetta is doomed. We don't know what the contractual agreement was or what went on behind closed doors. Chill out and stop panicking.
As for the "quality" of the final release, we don't know that either. The devs know the game is incomplete, unfair, and unbalanced right now. But remember, there will be things they have already completed or fixed which they don't even plan on ever adding to the test version. They've not only mentioned this in a previous progress report, but they've also made that distinction between the test version and the final version on the official website. Since then nothing has changed.
As for the "quality" of the final release, we don't know that either. The devs know the game is incomplete, unfair, and unbalanced right now. But remember, there will be things they have already completed or fixed which they don't even plan on ever adding to the test version. They've not only mentioned this in a previous progress report, but they've also made that distinction between the test version and the final version on the official website. Since then nothing has changed.
hear hear!
/me agrees with alienb.
We can all put in our time and effort to help get this game working smoothly. We are also in the position of being able to promote it. Tell your friends, your parents friends, you dog, cat, goldfish... hell tell your grandmother if you think she's capable of doing a little trading. Every bit of good press Vendetta gets cant be a bad thing.
Even if the s**t should hit the fan and, {insert favorite god like entity here} forbid, guild gets screwed and left hanging, well thats life. Sure, nobody here wants to see that but at least we can say we did our ABSOLUTE BEST.
Just my tuppence.
Asphy
/me agrees with alienb.
We can all put in our time and effort to help get this game working smoothly. We are also in the position of being able to promote it. Tell your friends, your parents friends, you dog, cat, goldfish... hell tell your grandmother if you think she's capable of doing a little trading. Every bit of good press Vendetta gets cant be a bad thing.
Even if the s**t should hit the fan and, {insert favorite god like entity here} forbid, guild gets screwed and left hanging, well thats life. Sure, nobody here wants to see that but at least we can say we did our ABSOLUTE BEST.
Just my tuppence.
Asphy
I completely agree with alienb, Arolte, and asphyxia. People need to stop with the sky is falling stuff. Especially when it is based on a series of illogical deductions based on a complete lack of facts and ill-conceived perceptions of business practices and product development.
What we see is probably the tip of the iceberg. There will be countless details, large and small, being constructed out of sight. We don't see them because we don't need to, and showing us would slow the process. Our function is to test, critique, and comment on what we are shown.
We need to stop telling the devs how to suck eggs, and provide them with the support they have asked for. This wild speculation does no one any favours.
-S-
What we see is probably the tip of the iceberg. There will be countless details, large and small, being constructed out of sight. We don't see them because we don't need to, and showing us would slow the process. Our function is to test, critique, and comment on what we are shown.
We need to stop telling the devs how to suck eggs, and provide them with the support they have asked for. This wild speculation does no one any favours.
-S-
"I completely agree with alienb, Arolte, and asphyxia."
As do I. Very well said.
As do I. Very well said.
We could reassure ourselves that the sky is not falling, but we're going on a good long limb here. From EVERYTHING I've heard over the past few months, they're still deep in the development phase, and that's simply not where you want to be when you release in a month.
agreed, the devs have a LOT of code to cut, sectors to design, rpg and faction elements to implement, and no doubt they are furiously working at the keyboards getting this stuff in the game.
what they need are dedicated testers willing to join them on the limb and test the **** out of this new code (that i have a feeling is going to be coming in increasingly large doses from now on) to find EVERY possible 'sploit, bug, faliure and downright fatality of this game.
yeah i agree with every word you say, the game development is hideously far behind... this branch under my backside is very long and unsafe, and the sky is starting to crack.
I for one am sticking around till i get knocked out by a falling cloud..
asphy
what they need are dedicated testers willing to join them on the limb and test the **** out of this new code (that i have a feeling is going to be coming in increasingly large doses from now on) to find EVERY possible 'sploit, bug, faliure and downright fatality of this game.
yeah i agree with every word you say, the game development is hideously far behind... this branch under my backside is very long and unsafe, and the sky is starting to crack.
I for one am sticking around till i get knocked out by a falling cloud..
asphy
This post is addressed to the devs mainly.
Since we're here to test the game and get behind the scenes stuff (as in before release (if you didn't know that, you're screwed)) we also are supposed to get the word out about Vendetta. When the game releases, do you guys (devs) have something we could do to advertise? I really don't know of anyone who wants to see all of you end up on the streets begging for food. The vast majority of the people who play fairly often would do anything (well, not anything, but a lot of stuff) to advertise Vendetta to non-Vendettians. Some kind of pamphlet stuff maybe? If y'all don't care, we can make our own with screens and stuff. I guess you guys wouldn't sue us for using screens, would you? You seem to have more sense than that. : )
-Cleveland,GA
Since we're here to test the game and get behind the scenes stuff (as in before release (if you didn't know that, you're screwed)) we also are supposed to get the word out about Vendetta. When the game releases, do you guys (devs) have something we could do to advertise? I really don't know of anyone who wants to see all of you end up on the streets begging for food. The vast majority of the people who play fairly often would do anything (well, not anything, but a lot of stuff) to advertise Vendetta to non-Vendettians. Some kind of pamphlet stuff maybe? If y'all don't care, we can make our own with screens and stuff. I guess you guys wouldn't sue us for using screens, would you? You seem to have more sense than that. : )
-Cleveland,GA
Heh, I have a few arms stuck out in various MMORPG communities... I just want to be able to say "here, download and try it".