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On the subject of ship balance.
And balancing the ships rears its ugly head again. :)
Ok this is actually in response to icarus posting in the bugs forum about the valkarie.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/2/7698
I dont like posting in the bugs forum for stuff like this, so i've moved the discussion here, and i'm going to change the flavor of the discussion a bit.
The above thread basically boils down to the fact that the valk has no significant disadvantages, it has;
1. Low Mass = Very Agile
2. Good Firepower
3. Good Armor
Because of all 3 of these, it has a significant advantage in combat, however the valk isnt the whole problem, actually this thread isnt about the valk at all, its about all the ships.
Why dont we change the way our ships interact with each other by giving all ships significant strenghts and weaknesses.
Light agile ships should be fast, have low armor, fire light damage weapons that take a lot of accuracy.
These ships would be excellent hunter killers when confronted with a slow reacting target by being able to dodge around it while picking away at it. Hit and run, dodge in, do some damage then evade and come around for another pass would be the primary tactics of these ships.
Heavy ships would have slow firing, highly accurate heavy weapons, lots of armor, and the agility of a brick. These ships are able to take out the moderately agile medium quality ships with thier powerful guns. Slow to react they are veunerable to light ships that can dodge fast enough to get around "behind" them.
Medium agility ships would have good armor, mount heavier weapons that do more damage, and be reasonably agile.
These ships would be the hardest to balance correctly because they need to be fast enough to react well to a light ship, doing enough damage to kill one before thier armor is whittled away, but not so fast that they can avoid the fire coming from a heavy ship.
To do this i suggest we create a third weapons port size and rebalance the ships with that in mind. (we've discussed a third port before).
Then we would have the following ports
Small - , low mass, low damage, good rate of fire, moderate accuracy weapons. (phased blasters, Ion blasters, neutron 1, iceflares, starflares, gemini, yellowjacket, flachette cannons)\
Medium - Good damage, decent accuracy weapons, moderate mass. (Neutron 2 & 3, positron, starflare, stingray, gauss 1 & 2, jackhammers, [maybe the prox mine?], gatling cannon)
Large - High accuracy, Large damage, low ROF, very heavy mass weapons. (the swarms, plasma devs, advanced gatling, lightning mines, screamers)
The idea being that the small weapons do less damage, requiring more skill on the part of the pilot and more agile ships to hit with.
The medium weapons having more firepower, not requiring ships to be as mobile, a decent mix of damage vs accuracy, requires a ship with some agility to use effectively.
The large being weapons that are extremely powerful, but largely ineffectual against a fast moving target.
The ships would then be ranked in their categories as follows, from least agile to most agile, i've included a rough mass/hull guess;
Light ships
Centurion - 1 S port - 5000mass/4000hull
Vulture - 2 S ports - 4500mass/4500hull
Valkarie - 3 S ports -3000mass/2500hull
Medium ships
Wraith - 1 S port / 2 M ports - 6000mass/11000hull
Hornet - 1 S Port / 3 M ports - 5000mass/9000hull
*Warthog - 1 M port / 1 L port - 5500mass/6500hull
*i'm not really quite sure what to do with the warthog, I hate to give it a L-port weapon, but giving it a S/M seems underpowered and giving it 2Mports doesent seem to follow the design of it as well. I've tried to compensate for the more powerful L-port by cutting its armor.
Heavy ships
Rangarok - 3 M ports / 2 L Ports - 11000mass/22000hull
Prometheous 2 M ports / 1 L Port - 9000mass/28000hull
The general concept being a rock paper scissors combination. A light ship is veunerable to a medium ship because it doesnt have the armor to fight with the ships that can react well enough to get a few shots off; a medium ship is veunerable to a heavy ship because it cant dodge fast enough to evade all the fire and doesnt have the armor to go head to head; and a heavy ship is veunerable to a light ship because it cant bring its powerful aresenal to bear on the target.
All 3 ship groups would take some practice and skill to learn to use effectively, and the tactics of using all three types togehter would be important, adding more player to player interaction.
Some of the weapons would need rebalanced, all the weapons would need thier mass looked at, the iceflares and starflares would need more ammo, and the heavy weapons would need to have faster shot speed and do more damage, but thats a whole different thread.
Ok this is actually in response to icarus posting in the bugs forum about the valkarie.
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/2/7698
I dont like posting in the bugs forum for stuff like this, so i've moved the discussion here, and i'm going to change the flavor of the discussion a bit.
The above thread basically boils down to the fact that the valk has no significant disadvantages, it has;
1. Low Mass = Very Agile
2. Good Firepower
3. Good Armor
Because of all 3 of these, it has a significant advantage in combat, however the valk isnt the whole problem, actually this thread isnt about the valk at all, its about all the ships.
Why dont we change the way our ships interact with each other by giving all ships significant strenghts and weaknesses.
Light agile ships should be fast, have low armor, fire light damage weapons that take a lot of accuracy.
These ships would be excellent hunter killers when confronted with a slow reacting target by being able to dodge around it while picking away at it. Hit and run, dodge in, do some damage then evade and come around for another pass would be the primary tactics of these ships.
Heavy ships would have slow firing, highly accurate heavy weapons, lots of armor, and the agility of a brick. These ships are able to take out the moderately agile medium quality ships with thier powerful guns. Slow to react they are veunerable to light ships that can dodge fast enough to get around "behind" them.
Medium agility ships would have good armor, mount heavier weapons that do more damage, and be reasonably agile.
These ships would be the hardest to balance correctly because they need to be fast enough to react well to a light ship, doing enough damage to kill one before thier armor is whittled away, but not so fast that they can avoid the fire coming from a heavy ship.
To do this i suggest we create a third weapons port size and rebalance the ships with that in mind. (we've discussed a third port before).
Then we would have the following ports
Small - , low mass, low damage, good rate of fire, moderate accuracy weapons. (phased blasters, Ion blasters, neutron 1, iceflares, starflares, gemini, yellowjacket, flachette cannons)\
Medium - Good damage, decent accuracy weapons, moderate mass. (Neutron 2 & 3, positron, starflare, stingray, gauss 1 & 2, jackhammers, [maybe the prox mine?], gatling cannon)
Large - High accuracy, Large damage, low ROF, very heavy mass weapons. (the swarms, plasma devs, advanced gatling, lightning mines, screamers)
The idea being that the small weapons do less damage, requiring more skill on the part of the pilot and more agile ships to hit with.
The medium weapons having more firepower, not requiring ships to be as mobile, a decent mix of damage vs accuracy, requires a ship with some agility to use effectively.
The large being weapons that are extremely powerful, but largely ineffectual against a fast moving target.
The ships would then be ranked in their categories as follows, from least agile to most agile, i've included a rough mass/hull guess;
Light ships
Centurion - 1 S port - 5000mass/4000hull
Vulture - 2 S ports - 4500mass/4500hull
Valkarie - 3 S ports -3000mass/2500hull
Medium ships
Wraith - 1 S port / 2 M ports - 6000mass/11000hull
Hornet - 1 S Port / 3 M ports - 5000mass/9000hull
*Warthog - 1 M port / 1 L port - 5500mass/6500hull
*i'm not really quite sure what to do with the warthog, I hate to give it a L-port weapon, but giving it a S/M seems underpowered and giving it 2Mports doesent seem to follow the design of it as well. I've tried to compensate for the more powerful L-port by cutting its armor.
Heavy ships
Rangarok - 3 M ports / 2 L Ports - 11000mass/22000hull
Prometheous 2 M ports / 1 L Port - 9000mass/28000hull
The general concept being a rock paper scissors combination. A light ship is veunerable to a medium ship because it doesnt have the armor to fight with the ships that can react well enough to get a few shots off; a medium ship is veunerable to a heavy ship because it cant dodge fast enough to evade all the fire and doesnt have the armor to go head to head; and a heavy ship is veunerable to a light ship because it cant bring its powerful aresenal to bear on the target.
All 3 ship groups would take some practice and skill to learn to use effectively, and the tactics of using all three types togehter would be important, adding more player to player interaction.
Some of the weapons would need rebalanced, all the weapons would need thier mass looked at, the iceflares and starflares would need more ammo, and the heavy weapons would need to have faster shot speed and do more damage, but thats a whole different thread.
With the current ship designs as they are, a third port is simply not really viable.
Basically, (L) port weapons, by your schema, are actually closer to (M) ports. They just haven't fixed the weight on a lot of the weapons yet. (Just think how many (L) port weapons are never used, like turrets, because they turn your ship into a slug)
I would like to see the ports remain as they are, but possibly introduce a super-heavy port at some point, for things like 360° turrets, powerful minelayers, and real missile batteries. These would be basically for much larger ships, and the only ships we have currently that might sensibly have one of these things would be a Prom or a Cent. Basically, our ship selection needs to grow before more variation along this axis is really appropriate.
One comment, though, on your proposed ship designs: heavy/med/light ship designs are interesting to contemplate, but it would be a huge error to make it so that slow ship A is actually so slow that it couldn't track fast ship B. Such an idea is just inviting trouble, and basically insurance that ship A will never be used.
I think the ship designs should be as follows, more or less:
Heavy: Super heavy armor, lots of weapons, able to carry more ammo(possibly) than other ships. Mobility limited, but with enough torque to track a faster moving ship. Basically a flying fortress with lots of cannon.
Med: Medium to heavy armor, varying weapons loadout, and reasonable mobility. Would require a mix of maneouvering and tracking tactics to be useful; basically, would be just mobile enough to dance around heavy ships a bit, but limited by its weight that it would still have to use a mix of maneouvering and tracking tactics against lighter ships.
Light: super fast, super light, minimal armament, little armor. Basically, these would be little, annoying mosquito ships that could wear you down eventually, but would not take many hits to squish.
There would of course be mixing, melding, and crossover between these types. Basically, I want there to be a ship available for every practical piloting style, so being useful in a fight is more a case of finding the ship that feels intuitive than finding the best ship which everyone else also uses.
Basically, (L) port weapons, by your schema, are actually closer to (M) ports. They just haven't fixed the weight on a lot of the weapons yet. (Just think how many (L) port weapons are never used, like turrets, because they turn your ship into a slug)
I would like to see the ports remain as they are, but possibly introduce a super-heavy port at some point, for things like 360° turrets, powerful minelayers, and real missile batteries. These would be basically for much larger ships, and the only ships we have currently that might sensibly have one of these things would be a Prom or a Cent. Basically, our ship selection needs to grow before more variation along this axis is really appropriate.
One comment, though, on your proposed ship designs: heavy/med/light ship designs are interesting to contemplate, but it would be a huge error to make it so that slow ship A is actually so slow that it couldn't track fast ship B. Such an idea is just inviting trouble, and basically insurance that ship A will never be used.
I think the ship designs should be as follows, more or less:
Heavy: Super heavy armor, lots of weapons, able to carry more ammo(possibly) than other ships. Mobility limited, but with enough torque to track a faster moving ship. Basically a flying fortress with lots of cannon.
Med: Medium to heavy armor, varying weapons loadout, and reasonable mobility. Would require a mix of maneouvering and tracking tactics to be useful; basically, would be just mobile enough to dance around heavy ships a bit, but limited by its weight that it would still have to use a mix of maneouvering and tracking tactics against lighter ships.
Light: super fast, super light, minimal armament, little armor. Basically, these would be little, annoying mosquito ships that could wear you down eventually, but would not take many hits to squish.
There would of course be mixing, melding, and crossover between these types. Basically, I want there to be a ship available for every practical piloting style, so being useful in a fight is more a case of finding the ship that feels intuitive than finding the best ship which everyone else also uses.
Something is missing from these discussions that I'd like to point out.
It is my view that (on top of any other adjustments) we should make the Prometheus three times heavier, give its engine three times the thrust and three times the spin torque. This would be impossible at the time we had one-size-fits-all engines, but now we can do it.
What difference would it make? Well, start adding massive weapons in. They won't have nearly the impact they have on, for instance, a Valkyrie.
It is my view that (on top of any other adjustments) we should make the Prometheus three times heavier, give its engine three times the thrust and three times the spin torque. This would be impossible at the time we had one-size-fits-all engines, but now we can do it.
What difference would it make? Well, start adding massive weapons in. They won't have nearly the impact they have on, for instance, a Valkyrie.
I think we should all wait and see what the next engine re-balance does to the ships right now. If many of the engines are customized for their ships it will add alot to the game.
example, centurion given a higher thrust torque engine to make it faster then the valk etc
I imagine one is due anytime so I am waiting patiently for it.
example, centurion given a higher thrust torque engine to make it faster then the valk etc
I imagine one is due anytime so I am waiting patiently for it.
awesome, a1k0n!
*cheers
*cheers
Thats a good point, a1k0n. However, I'm still a bit dubious as to how much that would rebalance the prometheus, although I admit to being curious to it.
Afaik The simple 3x at all times isn't only going to change the handling a bit (*cough*) but will also make it jerkier and harder to manouver in a decent way. I might be wrong, but I was led to believe that from how.. well... you handled your pong racket, erm. sorry, Frigatte.
Afaik The simple 3x at all times isn't only going to change the handling a bit (*cough*) but will also make it jerkier and harder to manouver in a decent way. I might be wrong, but I was led to believe that from how.. well... you handled your pong racket, erm. sorry, Frigatte.
hey, if a1k0n manages to tweak that so it has the agility to play ping pong, I'd be thrilled.
(table tennis = very agile ship :D!!)
(table tennis = very agile ship :D!!)
I wasn't saying that would be the only change necessary to balance the Prometheus.
But you're wrong. With the equivalent engine changes, it wouldn't handle any differently. Mass used to mean more when engines were totally interchangable, and engines are pretty close to interchangable internally right now.
The frigate thing never had an engine matched to its size when we were playing with it.
But you're wrong. With the equivalent engine changes, it wouldn't handle any differently. Mass used to mean more when engines were totally interchangable, and engines are pretty close to interchangable internally right now.
The frigate thing never had an engine matched to its size when we were playing with it.
--One comment, though, on your proposed ship designs: heavy/med/light ship designs are interesting to contemplate, but it would be a huge error to make it so that slow ship A is actually so slow that it couldn't track fast ship B. Such an idea is just inviting trouble, and basically insurance that ship A will never be used.--
If ship B cant destroy ship C because ship C has higher firewpower but retains enough agility to track ship B, but ship A -CAN- destroy ship B, then yes, ship A will get used.
its a trade off where everything is veunerable to something and powerful against something else.
Actually i wasnt implying that ship A will never be able to track ship B, it will just be possible for a good pilot in ship B to avoid being tracked by ship A. If the pilot in ship A just charges straight in, well, hes gonna die.(this is getting confusing, ABABBAACBCABC :P)
I see what A1k0n is saying spider, heres the math that he's not bothering to show.
Ship A
Mass 100
+ agility 100
= 1 to 1 mass to agility ratio
+ Weapon Mass 100
= 2 to 1 mass to agility ratio
Ship B
mass 300
+ agility 300
= 1 to 1 mass to agility ratio
+ Weapon Mass 100
= 4 to 3 mass to agility ratio, a significant improvement.
Ok a1k0n, so when can we expect those changes? :)
If ship B cant destroy ship C because ship C has higher firewpower but retains enough agility to track ship B, but ship A -CAN- destroy ship B, then yes, ship A will get used.
its a trade off where everything is veunerable to something and powerful against something else.
Actually i wasnt implying that ship A will never be able to track ship B, it will just be possible for a good pilot in ship B to avoid being tracked by ship A. If the pilot in ship A just charges straight in, well, hes gonna die.(this is getting confusing, ABABBAACBCABC :P)
I see what A1k0n is saying spider, heres the math that he's not bothering to show.
Ship A
Mass 100
+ agility 100
= 1 to 1 mass to agility ratio
+ Weapon Mass 100
= 2 to 1 mass to agility ratio
Ship B
mass 300
+ agility 300
= 1 to 1 mass to agility ratio
+ Weapon Mass 100
= 4 to 3 mass to agility ratio, a significant improvement.
Ok a1k0n, so when can we expect those changes? :)
a1k0n:
Your post pretty much mirrors what I had in mind, but I was trying to word things as openly as possible, so that my ideas could be implimented either by making the Prom a -real- heavy ship(Which I approve of), or by simply rebalancing the numbers a bit.
Either way, I think my suggestions are pretty redundant by now, because I keep getting indications that what is actually being planned is similar to whatever I've suggested, only better.
I do hope you impliment a turbo meter separate from energy, though; there's a breakdown of my arguments for that in another topic you've prolly already seen...
Your post pretty much mirrors what I had in mind, but I was trying to word things as openly as possible, so that my ideas could be implimented either by making the Prom a -real- heavy ship(Which I approve of), or by simply rebalancing the numbers a bit.
Either way, I think my suggestions are pretty redundant by now, because I keep getting indications that what is actually being planned is similar to whatever I've suggested, only better.
I do hope you impliment a turbo meter separate from energy, though; there's a breakdown of my arguments for that in another topic you've prolly already seen...
I propose removing the one-size-fits-all batteries and making them specific to each ship, as with engines. Also change the wormhole jump energy from 100% to a fixed amount (why is there a penalty for more battery capacity).
Probably the main reason for this is to put a bit of a firepower gap between small and large ships. Larger ships should have larger engines which consume much more power, so they need bigger capacities and higher recharges. That would make larger ships have much more power for weapons (which they should). This way, fighters will have to use lower damage weapons, and rely on their agility, where as large ships may have trouble hitting, but will hit hard.
Secondly, free, light and medium batteries are worthless assuming someone has the money and levels for heavy or fast charge. This penalizes new players, and makes the universe much more dangerous (ion storm with guardians or assaults while flying with a light/free battery? ouch). I'd like to see the early ships stay useful, though less specialized.
Also the pirating/trading thing will be more interesting, where trade ships will be equiped to fly long distances at constant speed, and fighters will mostly be equiped for short sprints. There'd be a sort of lion/gazelle situation. Then some trade ship varients may sacrifice some long-term efficiency for a little extra power for those who fly dangerous routes.
Probably the main reason for this is to put a bit of a firepower gap between small and large ships. Larger ships should have larger engines which consume much more power, so they need bigger capacities and higher recharges. That would make larger ships have much more power for weapons (which they should). This way, fighters will have to use lower damage weapons, and rely on their agility, where as large ships may have trouble hitting, but will hit hard.
Secondly, free, light and medium batteries are worthless assuming someone has the money and levels for heavy or fast charge. This penalizes new players, and makes the universe much more dangerous (ion storm with guardians or assaults while flying with a light/free battery? ouch). I'd like to see the early ships stay useful, though less specialized.
Also the pirating/trading thing will be more interesting, where trade ships will be equiped to fly long distances at constant speed, and fighters will mostly be equiped for short sprints. There'd be a sort of lion/gazelle situation. Then some trade ship varients may sacrifice some long-term efficiency for a little extra power for those who fly dangerous routes.
Fleabait:
Good ideas all around - we differ on some small details, but I definitely agree that the "low end" ships should remain just as useful as their "high end" counterparts, but only in a multi-purpose role. Something specialized, such as bombing/dogfighting/interception/trading/mining ships, though, should be able to out-perform the multi-purpose ships in their specialty, every time.
Good ideas all around - we differ on some small details, but I definitely agree that the "low end" ships should remain just as useful as their "high end" counterparts, but only in a multi-purpose role. Something specialized, such as bombing/dogfighting/interception/trading/mining ships, though, should be able to out-perform the multi-purpose ships in their specialty, every time.