Forums » Suggestions
Just a simple menu where two people in the same station could exchange widgets for other widgets or credits. Should also work for gifting widgets or credits. This would only work with BOTH players in the same station.
+1 to any form of ship trading or anything that makes item trade easier!
+1
I think it should include a handling fee charged by the station. This way the current under-the-table method of "trading" stuff is cheap but dangerous and inconvenient, while the in-station method is more expensive but safe and easy. The fee would scale up with the danger of the locale, with minor factions being more expensive than national stations and grey stations being more expensive than nation-space stations. Corvus would, of course, be the most expensive.
Once again +1 Why don't we have some version of this yet?
And yes, there should be a cost to doing business.
And yes, there should be a cost to doing business.
I'm in the process of writing this now. I's a plugin, but it'll be workable towards this end.
The basic premise will be to provide a number of trade channels, both public and private. Players can post "contracts" (i.e. either items or requests) up for bid by players. The owner of the contract will be able to select who wins. At present, I have not way of enacting a transaction fee, nor would this system provide for direct transfers of goods between players. (I have no control over that) This will however begin to provide an in game platform for establishing the concept of P2P trade.
Right now, I have finished:
* The data model
* The basic screens design (though I have actually managed to get one built)
* The backend process to provide security (this was built into the plugin gateway I built and am running other PA plugins on top of) This is to help protect people from abusing the system by logging in as alts and mucking things up.
I still need to:
* Complete the channel maintenance screens
* Complete the popups for some of the user functions
* Write all the back tier PHP code for supporting the front end request calls.
This is a huge task (on top of everything else I've been doing). I'm not to proud to ask if anybody wants to help, feel free to write me. I'm hosting the database on my own domain.
The basic premise will be to provide a number of trade channels, both public and private. Players can post "contracts" (i.e. either items or requests) up for bid by players. The owner of the contract will be able to select who wins. At present, I have not way of enacting a transaction fee, nor would this system provide for direct transfers of goods between players. (I have no control over that) This will however begin to provide an in game platform for establishing the concept of P2P trade.
Right now, I have finished:
* The data model
* The basic screens design (though I have actually managed to get one built)
* The backend process to provide security (this was built into the plugin gateway I built and am running other PA plugins on top of) This is to help protect people from abusing the system by logging in as alts and mucking things up.
I still need to:
* Complete the channel maintenance screens
* Complete the popups for some of the user functions
* Write all the back tier PHP code for supporting the front end request calls.
This is a huge task (on top of everything else I've been doing). I'm not to proud to ask if anybody wants to help, feel free to write me. I'm hosting the database on my own domain.
I understand that this plugin will likely be used only by the carebear alliance and you have so much time on your hands since you're retired so you might as well as code SOMETHING, however have you considered the following:
* It's likely devs will implement something for pvp trading, so when it comes out, this plugin will suddenly seem like such a big waste of time
* Plugins that depend on servers for functioning are less likely to be used by people who have multiple alts across rival guilds, because of ability to gain revealing information about alts
I don't mean to be discouraging, but here's the harsh honesty: I wouldn't use it. I don't want you to have my IP address and figure out my other alts, and I'm positive about 33% of other players feel the same way. I like my spy alts where they are now.
* It's likely devs will implement something for pvp trading, so when it comes out, this plugin will suddenly seem like such a big waste of time
* Plugins that depend on servers for functioning are less likely to be used by people who have multiple alts across rival guilds, because of ability to gain revealing information about alts
I don't mean to be discouraging, but here's the harsh honesty: I wouldn't use it. I don't want you to have my IP address and figure out my other alts, and I'm positive about 33% of other players feel the same way. I like my spy alts where they are now.
Actually, the gateway I designed would not be tracking things like IPs anyway. Additionally, given the open nature of the thing, it's not worrying about whether you're an alt or not. I have tried to design it so it would be usable by anybody, not merely traders and haulers (hence the open nature of contract which can be posted). _I_ am hosting this plugin, not my guild, though I host many of my guild plugins on the same server, so leave guilds out of this.
Yes, I'm sure the devs will develop something like P2P trading some day, but no offense to them, given how much the PvP'ers whine about they don't have some new-fangled way to mess up other players lives in game, and the "Whaaa, Whaaa, Whaaa, I'm not an elite killer!!" kind of attitude we constantly see on these pages, further enhanced by the extreme vitriol witnessed in the responses to anything which smacks of something NOT PvP, it's likely to be a VERY LONG TIME before they do develop something like that, which makes waiting for it about as inane as saying "Well, the sun's going to through an expansion phase in a few billion years, destroying the Earth as it becomes a Red giant, so why bother with civilization and such, when we're all going to die anyway."
Finally, I'm NOT retired. I am still looking for work (thought I'd had a job last month, but they lied on the contract; whether I sue them or not pretty is comes down to whether getting the pay for a 3 month contract would be worth it). In fact, given how late in my life I got started on the whole retirement thing (I spent my time up to my late 30s taking care of my parents and their family - as a question, are YOUR parents still alive? Mine aren't), so it's entirely possible that I won't ever get to retire. I DO do this stuff because I enjoy designing software and solutions. Since that's what I sell myself doing, why not do it as examples? What I build isn't of the "Honk" plugin variety. Ask those who've used the plugins I write. They're very professionally designed and implemented. It's sad that you can't understand that, and can only express distaste. I have read enough of your posts to know your personality (regardless of RP - which this forum isn't - one cannot hide their true personality. Trolling is usually the result of some latent fear of inadequacy, but is allowed to be expressed through anonymity), but calling out your obvious foible would not be polite, and be counter-productive.
You're welcome NOT to use the plugin. While I do hope it will be used more broadly, it requires risk when offering any solution to a problem; the simple fact that it might not be used. But were I to use that cowardly approach in life, I would never have gotten out of my old neighborhood; I'd still be stuck in poverty; indeed, I'd probably already be dead.
Your comments, Failure, are always welcome, but will be ignored, as they are also always irrelevant.
Yes, I'm sure the devs will develop something like P2P trading some day, but no offense to them, given how much the PvP'ers whine about they don't have some new-fangled way to mess up other players lives in game, and the "Whaaa, Whaaa, Whaaa, I'm not an elite killer!!" kind of attitude we constantly see on these pages, further enhanced by the extreme vitriol witnessed in the responses to anything which smacks of something NOT PvP, it's likely to be a VERY LONG TIME before they do develop something like that, which makes waiting for it about as inane as saying "Well, the sun's going to through an expansion phase in a few billion years, destroying the Earth as it becomes a Red giant, so why bother with civilization and such, when we're all going to die anyway."
Finally, I'm NOT retired. I am still looking for work (thought I'd had a job last month, but they lied on the contract; whether I sue them or not pretty is comes down to whether getting the pay for a 3 month contract would be worth it). In fact, given how late in my life I got started on the whole retirement thing (I spent my time up to my late 30s taking care of my parents and their family - as a question, are YOUR parents still alive? Mine aren't), so it's entirely possible that I won't ever get to retire. I DO do this stuff because I enjoy designing software and solutions. Since that's what I sell myself doing, why not do it as examples? What I build isn't of the "Honk" plugin variety. Ask those who've used the plugins I write. They're very professionally designed and implemented. It's sad that you can't understand that, and can only express distaste. I have read enough of your posts to know your personality (regardless of RP - which this forum isn't - one cannot hide their true personality. Trolling is usually the result of some latent fear of inadequacy, but is allowed to be expressed through anonymity), but calling out your obvious foible would not be polite, and be counter-productive.
You're welcome NOT to use the plugin. While I do hope it will be used more broadly, it requires risk when offering any solution to a problem; the simple fact that it might not be used. But were I to use that cowardly approach in life, I would never have gotten out of my old neighborhood; I'd still be stuck in poverty; indeed, I'd probably already be dead.
Your comments, Failure, are always welcome, but will be ignored, as they are also always irrelevant.
Keller, your plugin sounds very interesting. It is definitely something that is needed and I would be happy to test it should you need help with that.
"Actually, the gateway I designed would not be tracking things like IPs anyway."
Unless you mean to say that you'd be running a bot as a relay to avoid players communicating directly with the server, all your above statement amounts to is your word, which only matters to people who trust you. Joylessjoker clearly does not or he wouldn't have voiced concern in the first place. And given the sometimes insane lengths people go to regarding hiding their alts and detecting other people's, I don't think he's wrong to be paranoid.
As for your spiel about PVP fans... you act like it's a one-sided problem. As somebody who skids his ship along the edge of the fence watching the pretty sparks fly, I can assure you that there are at least as many idiots on your side of the fence as there are on mine. Don't be one of them.
Unless you mean to say that you'd be running a bot as a relay to avoid players communicating directly with the server, all your above statement amounts to is your word, which only matters to people who trust you. Joylessjoker clearly does not or he wouldn't have voiced concern in the first place. And given the sometimes insane lengths people go to regarding hiding their alts and detecting other people's, I don't think he's wrong to be paranoid.
As for your spiel about PVP fans... you act like it's a one-sided problem. As somebody who skids his ship along the edge of the fence watching the pretty sparks fly, I can assure you that there are at least as many idiots on your side of the fence as there are on mine. Don't be one of them.
@Pizza: True, there are idiots on both sides of that particular fence. I do think I've always stated there should be balance: for every tech one can get for offense, there should be one for defense too. This helps with PvP too. Indeed, I'd especially love if we had ECM in this game.
I'm fully aware people should take my word I won't track things like IP on them. Frankly, I'm not going to. The whole reason I'm trying to build the thing is so we can provide a foundation for P2P trade that may hopefully get a fire going under the devs for providing one which isn't hosted by a player. If they set one up, I'd gladly shut the one I'm building down. That doesn't change that it should be built however. In fact, one reason I'm trying to set up private trade channels (which are created by an owner and which can only be seen if invited by the owner) is to assuage fears of information leakage. I deal with enough security design in the government space for what I do for a living. I'm not going to violate very carefully honed paranoia over information even though I'm building something personal. One can never know if one's clients are among the subscribers, thus I have a professional reputation to uphold.
I won't be hurt if no one uses it when it's done. (well, not too much; spending a lot of effort on something that NO ONE uses is going to hurt at least a little, and I'm too much a perfectionist not to feel a bit down over it, since people like me usually feel if something we've designed isn't being used, it's likely because of a mistake we've made in design)
That being said, regardless of what the devs say, if we the players don't demonstrate we would really like a particular feature and aren't willing to wait on them to build it (by building it ourselves as best as is possible within the environment of the game), maybe that will up the priority a bit. Voting +/-1 on things in the forum obviously isn't cutting it. Has anyone else even bothered to do a statistical analysis of requests on the forum vs actual implementation in the past 5 years? I have; it's not good. Yes, we've had simply cosmetic things, but outside of additional platform ports, the record isn't exactly something to crow about.
Besides, there are other ways to track people's identities if really desired. (though I've looked into such things, still haven't built them, because outside the theory, it's just not that interesting) e.g. Most players aren't really as clever as they think they are. A simple frequency analysis in use of chat vocabulary gives away alts about 75% of the time. The hardest ones to figure out are the ones who don't talk at all, which itself is indicative of alt-status; just not who it is. (you have to see them in game however) Even as alts, people tend to respond to the same people in similar ways. Do a frequency analysis against what synonym patterns are used when responding to which players actually provides a nearly 40% accuracy in determining who's who, even if that player is attempting to use different words. Of course, this could be defeated by using private channels like guild or group chat or PMs, but hopefully you get the point.
It's easily determined if you're actually chasing a person or not. Simply get a reading on their speed (direct from the API), then compare that speed against the observed speed based on range changes. The difference will present the angle the other ship is following.
No need for anything so esoteric as a web host for tracking people in order to figure out alts. Just gather lots of the right kinds of data from in game sources, and perform some nice data mining and collective intelligence techniques on it, and you're good to go.
This being said, I don't do this. Why? Admittedly, it'd be really REALLY fun, since I AM a mathematician and scientist before I'm anything else, but to what end? So that people would stop playing after I got my jollies? I subscribe and play this game because I like to PLAY it. If nobody else is in the sandbox, that'd be kind of boring, now wouldn't it?
I'm fully aware people should take my word I won't track things like IP on them. Frankly, I'm not going to. The whole reason I'm trying to build the thing is so we can provide a foundation for P2P trade that may hopefully get a fire going under the devs for providing one which isn't hosted by a player. If they set one up, I'd gladly shut the one I'm building down. That doesn't change that it should be built however. In fact, one reason I'm trying to set up private trade channels (which are created by an owner and which can only be seen if invited by the owner) is to assuage fears of information leakage. I deal with enough security design in the government space for what I do for a living. I'm not going to violate very carefully honed paranoia over information even though I'm building something personal. One can never know if one's clients are among the subscribers, thus I have a professional reputation to uphold.
I won't be hurt if no one uses it when it's done. (well, not too much; spending a lot of effort on something that NO ONE uses is going to hurt at least a little, and I'm too much a perfectionist not to feel a bit down over it, since people like me usually feel if something we've designed isn't being used, it's likely because of a mistake we've made in design)
That being said, regardless of what the devs say, if we the players don't demonstrate we would really like a particular feature and aren't willing to wait on them to build it (by building it ourselves as best as is possible within the environment of the game), maybe that will up the priority a bit. Voting +/-1 on things in the forum obviously isn't cutting it. Has anyone else even bothered to do a statistical analysis of requests on the forum vs actual implementation in the past 5 years? I have; it's not good. Yes, we've had simply cosmetic things, but outside of additional platform ports, the record isn't exactly something to crow about.
Besides, there are other ways to track people's identities if really desired. (though I've looked into such things, still haven't built them, because outside the theory, it's just not that interesting) e.g. Most players aren't really as clever as they think they are. A simple frequency analysis in use of chat vocabulary gives away alts about 75% of the time. The hardest ones to figure out are the ones who don't talk at all, which itself is indicative of alt-status; just not who it is. (you have to see them in game however) Even as alts, people tend to respond to the same people in similar ways. Do a frequency analysis against what synonym patterns are used when responding to which players actually provides a nearly 40% accuracy in determining who's who, even if that player is attempting to use different words. Of course, this could be defeated by using private channels like guild or group chat or PMs, but hopefully you get the point.
It's easily determined if you're actually chasing a person or not. Simply get a reading on their speed (direct from the API), then compare that speed against the observed speed based on range changes. The difference will present the angle the other ship is following.
No need for anything so esoteric as a web host for tracking people in order to figure out alts. Just gather lots of the right kinds of data from in game sources, and perform some nice data mining and collective intelligence techniques on it, and you're good to go.
This being said, I don't do this. Why? Admittedly, it'd be really REALLY fun, since I AM a mathematician and scientist before I'm anything else, but to what end? So that people would stop playing after I got my jollies? I subscribe and play this game because I like to PLAY it. If nobody else is in the sandbox, that'd be kind of boring, now wouldn't it?
You're completely missing the point Keller, getting caught in your own bubble world. There's no need to beat your pectorals with closed fists and bleat, "I AM MENSA MATERIAL!" Instead of making people connect to your server directly, why not do a bot relay setup? That way, it would alleviate the fears and distrust that people have about IP address harvesting, and see more use. Isn't that what you want, more people using it to their benefit? As simple as that.
I am shocked and amazed that I find myself agreeing with JoylessJoker. Yes, it would definitely get more use if there are no prerequisite plugin install to use it.
What JA is talking about sounds like a cool plugin to me, even if I weren't in PA. If you are so paranoid about IPs being tracked, you'll just have to do what you would do with any other server-based plugin offered by various guilds. Nothing new here really in that regard (aside, perhaps, from the designers expressed statement of having no intent on tracking IPs).
Sure it would be better to have in the game itself, but we all know that isn't going to happen.
Sure it would be better to have in the game itself, but we all know that isn't going to happen.
Frankly, I'll be proceeding with my design as is. If you don't want to use it, too bad for you. This isn't a new project; it's been ongoing for over a year. In that time I've tried:
* a distributed database to eliminate the need for a centralized database. This failed due to synchronicity issues.
* a bot approach, which failed due to bandwidth requirements. (are you naysayers even AWARE of what the bandwidth limitations are for bots in VO? Didn't think so)
* a command line only service. This cannot work in that it just looks bad. If you think the mobile users and most of the newer players are going to use a service which is command line only, think again. Additionally, the bandwidth issue reared its ugly head again.
Didn't leave a whole lot. What none of you seem to realize is that I've been designing software since the early 80s. I have more than enough experience to know what I'm doing, and I don't trash the suggestions of others without having examined them myself. I'm not perfect, but what I am is thorough.
Oh, and Joyless, it's not MENSA. It's 3-sigma to you sir.
* a distributed database to eliminate the need for a centralized database. This failed due to synchronicity issues.
* a bot approach, which failed due to bandwidth requirements. (are you naysayers even AWARE of what the bandwidth limitations are for bots in VO? Didn't think so)
* a command line only service. This cannot work in that it just looks bad. If you think the mobile users and most of the newer players are going to use a service which is command line only, think again. Additionally, the bandwidth issue reared its ugly head again.
Didn't leave a whole lot. What none of you seem to realize is that I've been designing software since the early 80s. I have more than enough experience to know what I'm doing, and I don't trash the suggestions of others without having examined them myself. I'm not perfect, but what I am is thorough.
Oh, and Joyless, it's not MENSA. It's 3-sigma to you sir.
Keller, it sounds like you think you're under attack from multiple angles here, when in fact joylessjoker is the only one who has expressed any negativity toward your project.
Frankly, I still find the cynicism and unfounded assumptions weaved among your comments amusing, but I'll wish good luck to you and your coding adventures, Keller.
Sorry that your contract fell through. If you are serious about marketing yourself as a programmer, there are better prospects that would attract attention to yourself out there than VO's limited, broken Lua API that was never intended to be a complete software development package. I say this not to make fun of you but to encourage you to think bigger.
Sorry that your contract fell through. If you are serious about marketing yourself as a programmer, there are better prospects that would attract attention to yourself out there than VO's limited, broken Lua API that was never intended to be a complete software development package. I say this not to make fun of you but to encourage you to think bigger.
Joker - actually, I'm an Architect. I was a developer for 30 years. My problem seems to be that regardless of what's on my resume or how long I've been doing design or architecture, organizations seem only to say "You're a developer." It's enough to make a person scream. (BTW, this isn't the only online game I've contributed to over the years, though as far as impacts are concerned, _I_ designed and wrote the prototype for FEMA's National Shelter System, then built and led the team that implemented it as a subcontractor under IBM. My efforts were credited with greatly assisting IBM getting the EADIS contract, which in 2008 was a 5 year $990 Million contract. I've done many such things like that over the years. I would have hoped that such successes would be enough, but it would appear not to be the case, as I've never been able to benefit from any of it. It's enough to make one sad)
Frankly, I'm not doing this in VO as a demonstration of my skills. (heck, were I pushing that angle, I'd say the players should pool their money, buy the game then use a distributed model for developing it - there are more than enough qualified code slingers in the subscription base) I'm doing it to stay active, which as you're certain to know, lack of which is the biggest career killer ever.
Pizza - you may be right. This no income thing has made me really sensitive to almost everything of late. (16 months at present. I really do think it's a case of age discrimination at work, but that kind of thing is almost impossible to prove) I know, I know - I shouldn't but it's gotten tougher as time as gone by. Thanks for reminding me. I just need a little luck. Like I said earlier, I work on this stuff mainly to keep sane and try to show I haven't been sitting on my butt watching videos all day.
Everyone - I'm trying to get this done (I have 18 projects at present, so "busy" is a bit of any understatement). Regardless of opinions, it would be very nice if you'd all at least take a look at it once it's done. At worst, I will have just spent time staying busy and demonstrating that I can after all do what I keep saying I can do for a job. At best, we can provide a mechanism for introducing P2P trade into VO in a form that wouldn't be that hard for GS to pick up.
Frankly, I'm not doing this in VO as a demonstration of my skills. (heck, were I pushing that angle, I'd say the players should pool their money, buy the game then use a distributed model for developing it - there are more than enough qualified code slingers in the subscription base) I'm doing it to stay active, which as you're certain to know, lack of which is the biggest career killer ever.
Pizza - you may be right. This no income thing has made me really sensitive to almost everything of late. (16 months at present. I really do think it's a case of age discrimination at work, but that kind of thing is almost impossible to prove) I know, I know - I shouldn't but it's gotten tougher as time as gone by. Thanks for reminding me. I just need a little luck. Like I said earlier, I work on this stuff mainly to keep sane and try to show I haven't been sitting on my butt watching videos all day.
Everyone - I'm trying to get this done (I have 18 projects at present, so "busy" is a bit of any understatement). Regardless of opinions, it would be very nice if you'd all at least take a look at it once it's done. At worst, I will have just spent time staying busy and demonstrating that I can after all do what I keep saying I can do for a job. At best, we can provide a mechanism for introducing P2P trade into VO in a form that wouldn't be that hard for GS to pick up.
You sound just like my brother. He was a competent programmer in the 1970s and 1980s. However he's had a hard time finding a stable job since, working a huge variety of temporary jobs ranging from a census worker to a high school teacher. I asked him why he didn't return to the programming world, and he lamented that the technology evolved way too fast for him, and there's no way he can compete with all of the young, bright computer science graduates fresh out of college. Yep, he's single, broke, and frustrated, but he's finding ways to make ends meet anyway.
Nobody wants to see C++ or Perl on your resume anymore. They want to see modern web and mobile app development skills, since the world is moving in that direction.
As for me, I'm just a 300 pound bear who likes to have webcam shows. You'd be surprised the amount of money male pervs throw at me just to see me jiggle my hairy man boobs. That's all I can do, since I'm of below average IQ as you correctly guessed. I envy you in some ways.
Nobody wants to see C++ or Perl on your resume anymore. They want to see modern web and mobile app development skills, since the world is moving in that direction.
As for me, I'm just a 300 pound bear who likes to have webcam shows. You'd be surprised the amount of money male pervs throw at me just to see me jiggle my hairy man boobs. That's all I can do, since I'm of below average IQ as you correctly guessed. I envy you in some ways.
how much for a 10 minute session, joyless?