Forums » Suggestions
Methodology for Player Sponsored Convoys and Patrols
Been thinking a while about what we can do when we've got a lot of levels and credits (hasn't almost everyone lately?), and have a suggestion for perusal. Please note, this is just a suggestion. I'd prefer we avoid +/- 1s and derisively negative comments. If you can't participate constructively, stay at your desk.
We've all made the comments that we'd like to have some form of player sponsored convoys, but I've been considering how that might be done utilizing as much of the existing code infrastructure as possible. That doesn't mean this would be easy (I have no access to the codebase, so it might actually be impossible with the existing base). What I've come up with is this:
Player Sponsored Convoys -
These are used for transport of the player's goods. When creating one (using the mission screen), the player would have several options to choose when determining the make-up (and final cost) of the convoy.
1) Starting and Ending Stations - The player will determine which station the convoy will start at and which station the convoy will end at. These would be any station which ships could dock with. Costs could be adjusted based on factors such as: Route entirely within the same area (Gray, Itani, Serco, UIT) or crossing boundaries. How long is the route? (obviously longer routes would be more expensive than shorter ones)
2) Convoy Function - The player will determine what the convoy will do when the surviving ships reach their destination. This would be limited to Unload and Sell.
3) Goods to transport - Initially, we could start off with only single item transport convoys, similar to the existing escort convoys. However, in time this could be expanded to determine which items (and quantities) are to be carried. This will determine the number of cus necessary to transport. The actual ships the convoy would use for transport would be based then on total cus / 120 (i.e. the hold size of a Mk I Behemoth) rounded up. Cost here is based on the number of transport ships used. (with some randomization thrown in per ship)
4) Escort Size - The player would be allowed to choose from a list: Small (1-4), Medium (2-6), Large (4-8), Very Large (6-10). When the convoy is assembled before starting, the actual number of escorts is randomly chosen to provide some variety. Cost here is based on the size category and not the number of ships provided. (with some randomization thrown in per category)
5) Frigate Escort - The player could choose to use a Trident escort. Cost here is based on paying for a Trident or not. (With some random cost thrown in)
The final cost of the convoy would be:
Cost = Route Type + Route Length + Ships Used + Escort Type + Trident Used
The player could participate in the escort personally, or post a contract paying other players to escort the convoy. The convoy would leave its starting point when the player clicked 'Finish'. All costs would be paid up front. The convoy's nationality would be based on the nationality of the player paying for it. This would appear to generate some oddities, as one could have a Serco convoy attempt to run inside Itani space for example. How the NPCs view the ships of the convoy and react still would need to be worked out.
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Not to be outdone, those who like to attack convoys would have something to spend on too.
Player Sponsored Patrols -
These work similarly to the convoys. The choices here are:
1) Who to attack - The player would determine the nationality of any ships to be attacked. Including 'All the above'. Cost here is based on relationship the player has with the target nationality. The better the relationship, the more expensive the patrol to attack it.
2) Which sector to patrol - Choose where the patrol will function. Cost here is based on which system, relationship the player has with the owner of that area in space, etc.
3) Patrol size - Similar to Escort Size in the Convoy choices.
Cost = Patrol Size + Location + Target Cost
If you want to salvage anything that was destroyed, you're going to have to do it yourself. An obvious thing to work out would be how long would patrols remain? They can't stay resident perpetually; that would lead to server strain. 15 minutes may be a good average.
Suggestions are welcome. I think if we actually constructively participate in this, we could present to the devs a good design which might actually be implemented.
We've all made the comments that we'd like to have some form of player sponsored convoys, but I've been considering how that might be done utilizing as much of the existing code infrastructure as possible. That doesn't mean this would be easy (I have no access to the codebase, so it might actually be impossible with the existing base). What I've come up with is this:
Player Sponsored Convoys -
These are used for transport of the player's goods. When creating one (using the mission screen), the player would have several options to choose when determining the make-up (and final cost) of the convoy.
1) Starting and Ending Stations - The player will determine which station the convoy will start at and which station the convoy will end at. These would be any station which ships could dock with. Costs could be adjusted based on factors such as: Route entirely within the same area (Gray, Itani, Serco, UIT) or crossing boundaries. How long is the route? (obviously longer routes would be more expensive than shorter ones)
2) Convoy Function - The player will determine what the convoy will do when the surviving ships reach their destination. This would be limited to Unload and Sell.
3) Goods to transport - Initially, we could start off with only single item transport convoys, similar to the existing escort convoys. However, in time this could be expanded to determine which items (and quantities) are to be carried. This will determine the number of cus necessary to transport. The actual ships the convoy would use for transport would be based then on total cus / 120 (i.e. the hold size of a Mk I Behemoth) rounded up. Cost here is based on the number of transport ships used. (with some randomization thrown in per ship)
4) Escort Size - The player would be allowed to choose from a list: Small (1-4), Medium (2-6), Large (4-8), Very Large (6-10). When the convoy is assembled before starting, the actual number of escorts is randomly chosen to provide some variety. Cost here is based on the size category and not the number of ships provided. (with some randomization thrown in per category)
5) Frigate Escort - The player could choose to use a Trident escort. Cost here is based on paying for a Trident or not. (With some random cost thrown in)
The final cost of the convoy would be:
Cost = Route Type + Route Length + Ships Used + Escort Type + Trident Used
The player could participate in the escort personally, or post a contract paying other players to escort the convoy. The convoy would leave its starting point when the player clicked 'Finish'. All costs would be paid up front. The convoy's nationality would be based on the nationality of the player paying for it. This would appear to generate some oddities, as one could have a Serco convoy attempt to run inside Itani space for example. How the NPCs view the ships of the convoy and react still would need to be worked out.
============================================================
Not to be outdone, those who like to attack convoys would have something to spend on too.
Player Sponsored Patrols -
These work similarly to the convoys. The choices here are:
1) Who to attack - The player would determine the nationality of any ships to be attacked. Including 'All the above'. Cost here is based on relationship the player has with the target nationality. The better the relationship, the more expensive the patrol to attack it.
2) Which sector to patrol - Choose where the patrol will function. Cost here is based on which system, relationship the player has with the owner of that area in space, etc.
3) Patrol size - Similar to Escort Size in the Convoy choices.
Cost = Patrol Size + Location + Target Cost
If you want to salvage anything that was destroyed, you're going to have to do it yourself. An obvious thing to work out would be how long would patrols remain? They can't stay resident perpetually; that would lead to server strain. 15 minutes may be a good average.
Suggestions are welcome. I think if we actually constructively participate in this, we could present to the devs a good design which might actually be implemented.
I like it. +1
Is it just a coincidence that this is the second such post, or was there something said in game that prompted this?
I think these are all great ideas... but honestly aside from saying that I see no reason to delve too much further into details unless we have some indication from the devs that it would be worthwhile. Otherwise all this thought just goes "into the bin" like 99% of other great suggestions.
Been thinking about this for a while. Just wanted to get it out of my brain.
You're probably right that this will just go into the circular file. I do realize that I and others have made these kinds of suggestions before. The difference is that I tend to try to figure out how they might be done using existing systems (admittedly I'm making a guess about the codebase here) rather than just throwing out ideas.
A bigger issue is that the existing mission editor wouldn't allow for groups of NPC to load/unload/sell player owned inventory, so the PCC can't build missions which would allow this. It would require a modification of the AI code.
You're probably right that this will just go into the circular file. I do realize that I and others have made these kinds of suggestions before. The difference is that I tend to try to figure out how they might be done using existing systems (admittedly I'm making a guess about the codebase here) rather than just throwing out ideas.
A bigger issue is that the existing mission editor wouldn't allow for groups of NPC to load/unload/sell player owned inventory, so the PCC can't build missions which would allow this. It would require a modification of the AI code.
+1
A few more ideas to add:
*It doesn't make sense for the contracted convoy to match the player's faction. The player would be contracting to use the station's ships as part of the convoy, therefore the ships should be of the starting station's faction.
*The available destination stations that the player can choose from should depend on the starting station's faction. The player should not be able to choose a destination that is hostile to the convoy or require a route through hostile space. e.g. sending an Itani convoy to a Serco station makes no sense and should not be allowed; not only would the convoy most likely be destroyed before reaching the destination but wouldn't even be able to dock if it did.
*The cost of the convoy should require a deposit for each NPC ship in the convoy, which is returned to the player when the ship(s) make it to the destination in one piece. That way the player will have incentive to actually defend the convoy ships and ensure they actually reach the destination.
*The player should lose the ability to contract larger convoys if they run several convoys that result in significant losses. i.e. if the player demonstrates an inability to keep a large convoy alive, then the player should be limited to small convoys. And conversely, after contracting a number of smaller convoys in which all the ships reach the destination would make the larger convoys available to the player.
*Large convoys (and trident convoys) should not be available from dinky stations.
*It doesn't make sense for the contracted convoy to match the player's faction. The player would be contracting to use the station's ships as part of the convoy, therefore the ships should be of the starting station's faction.
*The available destination stations that the player can choose from should depend on the starting station's faction. The player should not be able to choose a destination that is hostile to the convoy or require a route through hostile space. e.g. sending an Itani convoy to a Serco station makes no sense and should not be allowed; not only would the convoy most likely be destroyed before reaching the destination but wouldn't even be able to dock if it did.
*The cost of the convoy should require a deposit for each NPC ship in the convoy, which is returned to the player when the ship(s) make it to the destination in one piece. That way the player will have incentive to actually defend the convoy ships and ensure they actually reach the destination.
*The player should lose the ability to contract larger convoys if they run several convoys that result in significant losses. i.e. if the player demonstrates an inability to keep a large convoy alive, then the player should be limited to small convoys. And conversely, after contracting a number of smaller convoys in which all the ships reach the destination would make the larger convoys available to the player.
*Large convoys (and trident convoys) should not be available from dinky stations.
Good suggestions.
* I'd originally thought to do have the convoy's faction based on its starting base, but mentioned using the player faction, since convoys starting in gray space might have some issues in being determined. However, the starting station's faction is preferred.
* The point to allowing a convoy's target to be based on the player's relations was that the player would be hiring the ships. Your suggestion is more realistic. It could be argued that hiring a convoy in Itani space to sail into Serco space would receive a "You've got to be kidding" kind of response from most people. It could be argued though you could allow such convoys to exist anyway, but at considerably higher cost and no availability of trident escorts.
* I would have thought having to pay for the convoy up front would be a pretty good incentive to get it through to the target.
* A really nice suggestion! Players who are proven to hire convoys that can't make it to their goal would end up with a reputation and no one would hire on with them. I'd amend this to saying the convoy size would be based on the player's relationship with the faction of the station the convoy would originate from. Convoys which make it through gain status, otherwise lose status. I'd suggest in that case that gains always be very slow and losses always large. That way, the player has a serious incentive for protecting the convoy, and sponsoring convoys cannot be made into an effective way to buy reputation.
* To add - Trident escorts would only be available from Capital or Military stations.
* I'd originally thought to do have the convoy's faction based on its starting base, but mentioned using the player faction, since convoys starting in gray space might have some issues in being determined. However, the starting station's faction is preferred.
* The point to allowing a convoy's target to be based on the player's relations was that the player would be hiring the ships. Your suggestion is more realistic. It could be argued that hiring a convoy in Itani space to sail into Serco space would receive a "You've got to be kidding" kind of response from most people. It could be argued though you could allow such convoys to exist anyway, but at considerably higher cost and no availability of trident escorts.
* I would have thought having to pay for the convoy up front would be a pretty good incentive to get it through to the target.
* A really nice suggestion! Players who are proven to hire convoys that can't make it to their goal would end up with a reputation and no one would hire on with them. I'd amend this to saying the convoy size would be based on the player's relationship with the faction of the station the convoy would originate from. Convoys which make it through gain status, otherwise lose status. I'd suggest in that case that gains always be very slow and losses always large. That way, the player has a serious incentive for protecting the convoy, and sponsoring convoys cannot be made into an effective way to buy reputation.
* To add - Trident escorts would only be available from Capital or Military stations.
"It could be argued though you could allow such [itani to serco] convoys to exist anyway"
Why should it be allowed when the convoy ships are not able to dock at the destination station? Even NPCs are not as crazy as that.
"I would have thought having to pay for the convoy up front would be a pretty good incentive to get it through to the target."
That only provides motivation for the convoy to not be a complete failure. It doesn't give the player incentive for 100% of the ships to arrive at the destination. For example, say the player desires 500 cu of carbonic ore in Deneb. The player could take the shotgun approach and hire 10 moths carrying 100cu each, and then provide no escort, hoping at least 50% of the ships arrive safely without protection.
With the value of the cargo being less than the value of the moths, there is little for the player to lose with this approach if not responsible for replacing destroyed convoy ships. With a deposit of, say, 100k per moth, such a tactic becomes an expensive endeavor.
Plus, you have to consider possible abuses to the system. Say a player were to hire a convoy with junk for cargo for the sole purpose of being turret fodder to pass through a hostile sector (hostile to the player, not necessarily to the convoy). Or say two buddies work in cahoots, where one hires a decoy convoy carrying junk and the other hires a convoy with the valuable cargo to follow just behind, where the decoy convoy would supposedly take the brunt of any NPC attack.
"Trident escorts would only be available from Capital or Military stations"
I would advise against shoehorning into such a notion based solely on the type of station. Surely not all barracks stations are large enough for tridents as well as there could be some commercial stations with large enough accommodations, etc. I'd recommend simply making trident convoy missions available from any station (except perhaps the capital shipyards) that is capable of docking tridents.
Why should it be allowed when the convoy ships are not able to dock at the destination station? Even NPCs are not as crazy as that.
"I would have thought having to pay for the convoy up front would be a pretty good incentive to get it through to the target."
That only provides motivation for the convoy to not be a complete failure. It doesn't give the player incentive for 100% of the ships to arrive at the destination. For example, say the player desires 500 cu of carbonic ore in Deneb. The player could take the shotgun approach and hire 10 moths carrying 100cu each, and then provide no escort, hoping at least 50% of the ships arrive safely without protection.
With the value of the cargo being less than the value of the moths, there is little for the player to lose with this approach if not responsible for replacing destroyed convoy ships. With a deposit of, say, 100k per moth, such a tactic becomes an expensive endeavor.
Plus, you have to consider possible abuses to the system. Say a player were to hire a convoy with junk for cargo for the sole purpose of being turret fodder to pass through a hostile sector (hostile to the player, not necessarily to the convoy). Or say two buddies work in cahoots, where one hires a decoy convoy carrying junk and the other hires a convoy with the valuable cargo to follow just behind, where the decoy convoy would supposedly take the brunt of any NPC attack.
"Trident escorts would only be available from Capital or Military stations"
I would advise against shoehorning into such a notion based solely on the type of station. Surely not all barracks stations are large enough for tridents as well as there could be some commercial stations with large enough accommodations, etc. I'd recommend simply making trident convoy missions available from any station (except perhaps the capital shipyards) that is capable of docking tridents.
I agree with your logic about ship deposits, although I think there should still be an overall cost. Maybe only for the escorts?
I understand where you're going on the Trident availability too, and I think that's a prudent restriction.
As stated, had always considered requiring convoys to be of the faction of the originating station, just wasn't sure if there were any exploits from doing it that way either. That being said, 2 convoys (one as a diversion) may be a legitimate shipping tactic, especially if the goods being shipped were expensive enough.
You wouldn't get to choose how many ships were carrying the goods, only the number of cus that were being transported. The number of ships (and presumably any fee) would be dependent on that. I think it could be allowable for the player to determine the number of ships too, but that might make the overall system too complex.
In all, progress. Let's just hope this doesn't end up in the circular file.
I understand where you're going on the Trident availability too, and I think that's a prudent restriction.
As stated, had always considered requiring convoys to be of the faction of the originating station, just wasn't sure if there were any exploits from doing it that way either. That being said, 2 convoys (one as a diversion) may be a legitimate shipping tactic, especially if the goods being shipped were expensive enough.
You wouldn't get to choose how many ships were carrying the goods, only the number of cus that were being transported. The number of ships (and presumably any fee) would be dependent on that. I think it could be allowable for the player to determine the number of ships too, but that might make the overall system too complex.
In all, progress. Let's just hope this doesn't end up in the circular file.
I like this idea in general, but would prefer being able to trigger a mission for other players to take to accomplish the hauling as opposed to the AI doing it. Maybe there is a place for both in the future.
Since the haulers (whether NPC or PC) would be carrying only cargo you already own, both would be possible. You can organize a hauling contract now with PCs; it's just that it's a lot harder to get the necessary people together.
Also, you're missing the second part of the suggestion - Player Sponsored Patrols. These are intended to help offset any convoys which would be moving through space. An extreme usage of patrols would be to have 2 players sponsor competing patrols to the space sector, creating a form of warfare that others could participate in.
Also, you're missing the second part of the suggestion - Player Sponsored Patrols. These are intended to help offset any convoys which would be moving through space. An extreme usage of patrols would be to have 2 players sponsor competing patrols to the space sector, creating a form of warfare that others could participate in.