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I think both Impavid and the Good Dr. are correct in their observations. Guild Software still has some substantial challenges ahead. Firstly, Impavid is correct in that the money Guild has been getting for their work porting Vendetta to various mobile devices will eventually dry up. The good new is that because of that opportunity, they've been able to hire an artist. (though my personal suspicion is that they needed someone with art skills to fully comply with requirements being put upon them)
Then the Good Dr. is correct in pointing out that VO is fundamentally flawed in its meaningless consequences and lack of real opportunity to have an impact.
I've read Incarnates posts on where he intends to take the game and they sound like a wet dream. You know, the ones where you wake up with a smile on your face before you notice the sticky mess... No? Are you sure?
Well, never mind that. I'll be honest though. My impression has long been that the priority of Guild Software is it's game engine and a desire to market it. I've long felt that Vendetta is simply a demo designed to show of the strong points of their engine.
Then the Good Dr. is correct in pointing out that VO is fundamentally flawed in its meaningless consequences and lack of real opportunity to have an impact.
I've read Incarnates posts on where he intends to take the game and they sound like a wet dream. You know, the ones where you wake up with a smile on your face before you notice the sticky mess... No? Are you sure?
Well, never mind that. I'll be honest though. My impression has long been that the priority of Guild Software is it's game engine and a desire to market it. I've long felt that Vendetta is simply a demo designed to show of the strong points of their engine.
I don't agree with tumblemonster, but he's not the first person who I've heard it from.
I've long felt that Vendetta is simply a demo designed to show of the strong points of their engine.
Right... that's why they have a 25,000 word backstory replete with historical characters, a fictional language unique to the game, a mineral distribution system tied in with manufacturing, a mission editor, territory and resource control, dynamic warfare between nations and groups of players, rogue AI entities with well defined levels of hierarchy that automatically explore, expand into, and exploit new areas of space (and will try to exterminate you, also)... because it's an engine test.
Right... that's why they have a 25,000 word backstory replete with historical characters, a fictional language unique to the game, a mineral distribution system tied in with manufacturing, a mission editor, territory and resource control, dynamic warfare between nations and groups of players, rogue AI entities with well defined levels of hierarchy that automatically explore, expand into, and exploit new areas of space (and will try to exterminate you, also)... because it's an engine test.
I think the point he is making Phaserlight is that while it started as a game project, it's quickly become more of a tech demo, at least in terms of the GS business model. That is the vibe we are getting from the development team, regardless of whether it is true or not.
The point of the kickstarter is in part to provide competition for those 'subsidized development' projects that is focused on gameplay updates instead of invisible engine stuff that we can't see.
We're getting off topic.
The point of the kickstarter is in part to provide competition for those 'subsidized development' projects that is focused on gameplay updates instead of invisible engine stuff that we can't see.
We're getting off topic.
What be wrong to log in, then mislead people to come to ye and fill yer own contents? : ]
VO is a free space, use yer own imagination to fill it : this should be free and unlimited : )
bleed well ye indignant spoiled brats : )
VO is a free space, use yer own imagination to fill it : this should be free and unlimited : )
bleed well ye indignant spoiled brats : )
TheRedSpy: I only agree with Impavid with regards to the portable market. Ultimately development attention is going to have to refocus on game development. If I knew exactly how the development team was going to use the additional resources and I agreed with their direction at the time, I would be happy to periodically throw some spare cash their way in a way similar to what this kickstart thing seems to be. It is fantastic that they are being subsidized by some of the players in the still emerging tablet market. However, at some point, I believe those players are going to start looking for a return on their investment.
Phaserlight: I'm sorry to have ruffled your feathers. I used the word felt. That is the way playing Vendetta 'feels' to me because of all of the issues that we go over again and again on this very forum. When I first started playing I was able to immerse myself in the gameplay.
I enjoyed looking for profitable trade routes and exploiting them. The economic redux killed that.
Probably the one project I am still most proud of and found most meaningful was an effort that took months to finish that provided a steady benefit to my guild. The economic redux made that mostly irrelevant.
I used to love playing the pirate and killing silly new players who ventured into Grey. The last time I seriously played my pirate character I used to sit at the Dau / Nyrius wormhole and kill npc convoys. The inability to inflict meaningful damage to another player killed that.
I would have loved to have delved into manufacturing. The cumbersome methodology and general lack of value in return for effort killed my experiments with that.
I also enjoyed the dynamic war. However, the dependence on bombers for anything but the fighter skirmish and the fact that there was no meaningful reward for effort or penalty for failure killed that.
I found mining to be a good pastime when I wanted to read or was doing other things and could not focus constantly on VO. The lack of meaningful purpose cost any real motivation to pursue it seriously- and not everyone wants a trident.
I would love to get back to the kind of immersion I felt the first few years I played. But Vendetta to me has become hollow. Everywhere I turn there is something that isn't right that throws me out of immersion. I watch as the game progresses. I see projects continue to sit half finished in the name of what was it? 'parallel development' or something?
At some point the central themes that recur in this forum over and over again are going to have to be addressed if the player base is going to be grown and sustained over time at a level that produces real growth.
Phaserlight: I'm sorry to have ruffled your feathers. I used the word felt. That is the way playing Vendetta 'feels' to me because of all of the issues that we go over again and again on this very forum. When I first started playing I was able to immerse myself in the gameplay.
I enjoyed looking for profitable trade routes and exploiting them. The economic redux killed that.
Probably the one project I am still most proud of and found most meaningful was an effort that took months to finish that provided a steady benefit to my guild. The economic redux made that mostly irrelevant.
I used to love playing the pirate and killing silly new players who ventured into Grey. The last time I seriously played my pirate character I used to sit at the Dau / Nyrius wormhole and kill npc convoys. The inability to inflict meaningful damage to another player killed that.
I would have loved to have delved into manufacturing. The cumbersome methodology and general lack of value in return for effort killed my experiments with that.
I also enjoyed the dynamic war. However, the dependence on bombers for anything but the fighter skirmish and the fact that there was no meaningful reward for effort or penalty for failure killed that.
I found mining to be a good pastime when I wanted to read or was doing other things and could not focus constantly on VO. The lack of meaningful purpose cost any real motivation to pursue it seriously- and not everyone wants a trident.
I would love to get back to the kind of immersion I felt the first few years I played. But Vendetta to me has become hollow. Everywhere I turn there is something that isn't right that throws me out of immersion. I watch as the game progresses. I see projects continue to sit half finished in the name of what was it? 'parallel development' or something?
At some point the central themes that recur in this forum over and over again are going to have to be addressed if the player base is going to be grown and sustained over time at a level that produces real growth.
"... that's why they have a 25,000 word backstory replete with historical characters, a fictional language unique to the game..."
I think you found one of VOs major problems. We all know Inc loves to write novels in the forums about what he wants to do. It's the doing!
Also, he's a terrible businessman, below average programmer, and has low self esteem.
I think you found one of VOs major problems. We all know Inc loves to write novels in the forums about what he wants to do. It's the doing!
Also, he's a terrible businessman, below average programmer, and has low self esteem.
Okay before all the carebears rush in, it's so obviously inappropriate to personalize it that the above comment should be considered humorous.
Also, what Death Fluffy said. It's sad in some cases because I used to really really care that this was fun to play. In any case that is the point of the kickstarter and this topic. I would be prepared to bet that Impavid, despite all his criticism, would still buy into it, even if he posts that he won't I bet he does anyway.
So, before Phaser cracks the guide whip and locks the topic limit posts to stuff about kickstarter campaign.
Also, what Death Fluffy said. It's sad in some cases because I used to really really care that this was fun to play. In any case that is the point of the kickstarter and this topic. I would be prepared to bet that Impavid, despite all his criticism, would still buy into it, even if he posts that he won't I bet he does anyway.
So, before Phaser cracks the guide whip and locks the topic limit posts to stuff about kickstarter campaign.
DF: It's okay; no feathers were ruffled. I think it's important to realize that this is not your game: that your idea of fun may not match up with someone else's. The devs already do a fantastic job of listening to the community, and actually taking the time to respond. However, they are not at the whim of the forums. I believe they have clear design goals in mind and share as much as possible with the userbase.
I'm glad you used the word invest, because that's how I feel about the game. I am invested in it. That does not mean I get to control its direction. Many of the points in your argument could be looked at from the perspective of the devs fixing things that were broken; it may step on some players idea of fun, but it really is a better thing for the game overall (read: maximum average utility).
It's usually a better idea to suggest specific changes to specific elements of gameplay than to make broad generalizations. This seems like common sense to me. BT has the right idea, I think: VO is kind of like a canvas on which meaning can be interpreted in a nearly infinite number of ways.
I remember the first time I earned over 1,000,000 credits, the first time I was able to stand up to an aggressor in PvP, etc., etc. These are fundamental and important aspects of the game, from my perspective. Even if they aren't important to you, perhaps they are still important to me. Now take the combined experience of every user, and sum the parts that are unique to each individual. Perhaps over the years, we have learned to take some of these for granted. Consider that some of the changes you have witnessed may be due to the devs trying to keep certain cornerstones intact which are important parts of every user's experience. I may think it's fun to kill a player repeatedly who is still just learning to fly, but is it a good thing if I'm able to do so without consequence?
The idea that the game must continually change to suit your or my idea of immersion is ludicrous. This is on par with the (8 yrs old) suggested "Win" button (why hasn't this happened yet??). Perhaps what you see as a comparative advantage you worked hard for was actually an exploit, perhaps the dependence on bombers in fleet engagements is a good thing. Perhaps meaning is where you find it. I don't have any of the answers, but hopefully I've made my point.
Let's try to keep this on the topic at hand; if anyone has a suggestion to make that is not related to Kickstarter, it would be best to do so in a different thread. I would love to continue discussing our philosophical differences, DF, but for the sake of this topic if you would like to continue let's do so in a new thread.
I'm glad you used the word invest, because that's how I feel about the game. I am invested in it. That does not mean I get to control its direction. Many of the points in your argument could be looked at from the perspective of the devs fixing things that were broken; it may step on some players idea of fun, but it really is a better thing for the game overall (read: maximum average utility).
It's usually a better idea to suggest specific changes to specific elements of gameplay than to make broad generalizations. This seems like common sense to me. BT has the right idea, I think: VO is kind of like a canvas on which meaning can be interpreted in a nearly infinite number of ways.
I remember the first time I earned over 1,000,000 credits, the first time I was able to stand up to an aggressor in PvP, etc., etc. These are fundamental and important aspects of the game, from my perspective. Even if they aren't important to you, perhaps they are still important to me. Now take the combined experience of every user, and sum the parts that are unique to each individual. Perhaps over the years, we have learned to take some of these for granted. Consider that some of the changes you have witnessed may be due to the devs trying to keep certain cornerstones intact which are important parts of every user's experience. I may think it's fun to kill a player repeatedly who is still just learning to fly, but is it a good thing if I'm able to do so without consequence?
The idea that the game must continually change to suit your or my idea of immersion is ludicrous. This is on par with the (8 yrs old) suggested "Win" button (why hasn't this happened yet??). Perhaps what you see as a comparative advantage you worked hard for was actually an exploit, perhaps the dependence on bombers in fleet engagements is a good thing. Perhaps meaning is where you find it. I don't have any of the answers, but hopefully I've made my point.
Let's try to keep this on the topic at hand; if anyone has a suggestion to make that is not related to Kickstarter, it would be best to do so in a different thread. I would love to continue discussing our philosophical differences, DF, but for the sake of this topic if you would like to continue let's do so in a new thread.
I absolutely wouldn't invest, and you shouldn't either. If VO did a kickstarter it should be viewed as what it is: A shameless, desperate money grab. The same reason they went so hard for Android and failed. You ALREADY support VO as I did for YEARS. What makes you think giving them more money will change anything at this stage? They've had more community goodwill that 50 other games combined, and they've done nothing but make promises they can't keep.
Even if they kickstarter with a solid pitch, great rewards, and a clear description of what they plan to accomplish with the money, they've proven time and time again they can't deliver.
Even if they kickstarter with a solid pitch, great rewards, and a clear description of what they plan to accomplish with the money, they've proven time and time again they can't deliver.
You'll have to excuse impavid he is a newb.
What reason they went for android and failed? Android *is* the reason they've failed to attract a substantially larger desktop audience because the business model has shifted from solid gameplay updates (which players love) to technical compatibility updates (which tech demo companies for android love).
While Incarnate claims this was done for the survival of the company and the game, the cost has been a phenomenally declining quality in game-play experience. To the extent now where obvious gameplay flaws (Itan would call them exploits) get in the way of achieving anything meaningful.
You know how it goes, you log-in to man the convoy in Edras I-2 and oh look, there's Greenwall on his serco alt shooting all the Serco ships with their own capgauss and it just makes you think; that is such a small and simple fix for the dev team to do yet for years and years it has destroyed the whole point of sector blockade.
It's not the big things that ruin Vendetta, it's all the little ones that should have been fixed a long time ago but are summarily ignored. The kickstarter campaign is meant to give GS some time to fix those things, or at least build in some new features to make them bearable so the overall experience isn't just ruined by every little bit of broken gameplay.
CtC is another great example, not only has it got another bug which humorously replaces the old one perfectly, but it's been acknowledged that it's full of unintended consequences which nobody needs to be a programmer to know could be fixed pretty easily (tweaking simple values for example). But still they are ignored and the activity is held out to be a feature.
I don't understand your objection Impavid, because if you didn't care anymore you wouldn't be here posting about it and if it does go ahead and it isn't successful then you, me and everyone else that has doubts will have our answers.
While Incarnate claims this was done for the survival of the company and the game, the cost has been a phenomenally declining quality in game-play experience. To the extent now where obvious gameplay flaws (Itan would call them exploits) get in the way of achieving anything meaningful.
You know how it goes, you log-in to man the convoy in Edras I-2 and oh look, there's Greenwall on his serco alt shooting all the Serco ships with their own capgauss and it just makes you think; that is such a small and simple fix for the dev team to do yet for years and years it has destroyed the whole point of sector blockade.
It's not the big things that ruin Vendetta, it's all the little ones that should have been fixed a long time ago but are summarily ignored. The kickstarter campaign is meant to give GS some time to fix those things, or at least build in some new features to make them bearable so the overall experience isn't just ruined by every little bit of broken gameplay.
CtC is another great example, not only has it got another bug which humorously replaces the old one perfectly, but it's been acknowledged that it's full of unintended consequences which nobody needs to be a programmer to know could be fixed pretty easily (tweaking simple values for example). But still they are ignored and the activity is held out to be a feature.
I don't understand your objection Impavid, because if you didn't care anymore you wouldn't be here posting about it and if it does go ahead and it isn't successful then you, me and everyone else that has doubts will have our answers.
"You know how it goes, you log-in to man the convoy in Edras I-2 and oh look, there's Greenwall on his serco alt shooting all the Serco ships with their own capgauss and it just makes you think; that is such a small and simple fix for the dev team to do yet for years and years it has destroyed the whole point of sector blockade."
Bad example. The flaw allowing that does need to be addressed, but that specific instance is irrelevant. The fighters don't really do anything. They're just a decoration for the capships.
The real exploit is using friendly alts to bomb the capships. The solution is to make blockaded sectors "monitored" by the blockading nation, and then add "shield dropping" as something that is penalized (so you can't drop shields on an alt, then kill with a main).
But yeah, the number of small annoying flaws that just sit around ignored for years is quite frustrating to say the least. Part of me agrees wholeheartedly with Imp. The rest of me is still enraptured by the pure joy of shooting people in the face with gauss, so I mostly let it slide.
Bad example. The flaw allowing that does need to be addressed, but that specific instance is irrelevant. The fighters don't really do anything. They're just a decoration for the capships.
The real exploit is using friendly alts to bomb the capships. The solution is to make blockaded sectors "monitored" by the blockading nation, and then add "shield dropping" as something that is penalized (so you can't drop shields on an alt, then kill with a main).
But yeah, the number of small annoying flaws that just sit around ignored for years is quite frustrating to say the least. Part of me agrees wholeheartedly with Imp. The rest of me is still enraptured by the pure joy of shooting people in the face with gauss, so I mostly let it slide.
How do you expect kickstarter to "give the developers more time"? They've had plenty of time.
I do care, because there are far more deserving projects on kickstarter deserving of funding, innovative and driven developers that deserve a chance to fail spectacularly, as the VO devs have done for the last 4 years. Kickstarter deserves better. If you all would pull your heads out of incarnate's ass you'd say the same. VO on kickstarter is demeaning to kickstarter.
I do care, because there are far more deserving projects on kickstarter deserving of funding, innovative and driven developers that deserve a chance to fail spectacularly, as the VO devs have done for the last 4 years. Kickstarter deserves better. If you all would pull your heads out of incarnate's ass you'd say the same. VO on kickstarter is demeaning to kickstarter.
Bad example. The flaw allowing that does need to be addressed, but that specific instance is irrelevant. The fighters don't really do anything. They're just a decoration for the capships.
Oh god, Rin, you're kidding right? You don't see something wrong with the fact that the fighters are just decorations?!?!?! I think you've highlighted my point for me more than I could have just alone.
Impavid it gives them time to work purely on developing content and negates the opportunity cost for working on tech demo stuff. For the past two years after the android launch GS hasn't been required to stay afloat via subscriptions because they've had probably pretty decent offers from mobile companies to demonstrate their game on their products.
The space MMO market has been dwindling and monopolized by EVE online. By comparison, the mobile devices market is booming. It makes complete business sense for GS to be an early mover in the mobile gaming market rather than a small player in the desktop space MMO market and I have no trouble believing that had they remained the former they would have gone out of business.
Compared to the other offerings on kickstarter for space MMO's like the ones you listed previously, VO has one major advantage: It exists and the groundwork has been laid down already. With a bit of additional kick VO could become a really popular and very playable game far sooner than Star Citizen or any of those other projects on Kickstarter. All that needs to happen is the business case for user subscriptions needs to overtake the one for mobile tech demos. The only way I see that happening is either the adoption of a F2P microtransaction model or crowdfunding.
Finally, if you really cared about the efficacy of kickstarter campaigns you'd be over there complaining to their community, rather than here. I'm just as pissed off as you when it comes to the lack of progress around here, and I have made a pretty big commitment to VO in the year and a half that I've been here, so I know where you are coming from. But I also understand the realities of the business situation they are in and how hard it is to be a small player in a marketplace. I see this as a chance for us to grab a hold of the development of VO and prove that consumer subscriptions and content are a better business model than tech demos.
Oh god, Rin, you're kidding right? You don't see something wrong with the fact that the fighters are just decorations?!?!?! I think you've highlighted my point for me more than I could have just alone.
Impavid it gives them time to work purely on developing content and negates the opportunity cost for working on tech demo stuff. For the past two years after the android launch GS hasn't been required to stay afloat via subscriptions because they've had probably pretty decent offers from mobile companies to demonstrate their game on their products.
The space MMO market has been dwindling and monopolized by EVE online. By comparison, the mobile devices market is booming. It makes complete business sense for GS to be an early mover in the mobile gaming market rather than a small player in the desktop space MMO market and I have no trouble believing that had they remained the former they would have gone out of business.
Compared to the other offerings on kickstarter for space MMO's like the ones you listed previously, VO has one major advantage: It exists and the groundwork has been laid down already. With a bit of additional kick VO could become a really popular and very playable game far sooner than Star Citizen or any of those other projects on Kickstarter. All that needs to happen is the business case for user subscriptions needs to overtake the one for mobile tech demos. The only way I see that happening is either the adoption of a F2P microtransaction model or crowdfunding.
Finally, if you really cared about the efficacy of kickstarter campaigns you'd be over there complaining to their community, rather than here. I'm just as pissed off as you when it comes to the lack of progress around here, and I have made a pretty big commitment to VO in the year and a half that I've been here, so I know where you are coming from. But I also understand the realities of the business situation they are in and how hard it is to be a small player in a marketplace. I see this as a chance for us to grab a hold of the development of VO and prove that consumer subscriptions and content are a better business model than tech demos.
You have it the wrong way round TRS, as do many players. Vendetta in alpha was an engine test, nothing more. Guild wanted to market an engine, not a game. They hoped to sell the means behind Vendetta, not make a game from it, it was only because of the "care" the devs had for the "dedicated" player base that VO was not just shut down in 2003. They made what they had into what you see now. All us old timers cried.
Well, sad truths be true, most of that player base isn't here anymore, most quit when Guild went Open Beta and expanded the universe to what it is now. Others left when VO gold in 2004 with a subscription model. We got a few EnB rejects after EA did their number on Westwood, but apart from that there has not been a significant influx of players since then. Sure, the Android market brought a few, but the best thing that could happen right now is for EvE to be shut down, not something they control. A kick starter project for VO? Too late.
tl;dr version: VO has ALWAYS been an engine test.
Well, sad truths be true, most of that player base isn't here anymore, most quit when Guild went Open Beta and expanded the universe to what it is now. Others left when VO gold in 2004 with a subscription model. We got a few EnB rejects after EA did their number on Westwood, but apart from that there has not been a significant influx of players since then. Sure, the Android market brought a few, but the best thing that could happen right now is for EvE to be shut down, not something they control. A kick starter project for VO? Too late.
tl;dr version: VO has ALWAYS been an engine test.
Wow, this has gone pretty far afield from suggestions of what specific things to give people who would contribute money in a kickstarter, which was the goal of the thread.
I'm sure lots of people have lots of opinions about the theoretical future of the game, what it needs, whether we deserve contributions of any kind, blah blah blah. But this isn't that thread.
Also, for the record: Android did save the company. I've bluntly stated as much in recent memory. We're doing better than ever before. But I've also hired new people, which increases burn rate, which benefits from additional funding to give more time and more ability to hire more people to make more stuff.
I have a good idea of how things look to an embittered vet from the outside, and I've always empathized with that. At the same time, I've never been able to state entirely how shitty things looked from the inside because that made people even less likely to support us. And things were very, very shitty. We're doing a lot better now, thanks in part to outside funding we received to directly improve our own game and engine, with no strings attached, just because it makes other devices and platforms look good. Frankly, I consider those to be pretty awesome deals. Yes, they do take time away from the gameplay development, but the whole point is to fund the gameplay development (I mean, seriously, the first new guy I hired is an artist. Do you really think that's some kind of weird platform/technology investment?). And if I can do the same thing with a kickstarter that actually asks me to do nothing but gameplay development, well, that's about as ideal as it gets.
Now, let's try and re-focus this thread on its original goals of stuff people could buy through a kickstarter. If others want to create "what VO needs" and "Incarnate should die in a fire" threads, go do so elsewhere in Suggestions.
I'm sure lots of people have lots of opinions about the theoretical future of the game, what it needs, whether we deserve contributions of any kind, blah blah blah. But this isn't that thread.
Also, for the record: Android did save the company. I've bluntly stated as much in recent memory. We're doing better than ever before. But I've also hired new people, which increases burn rate, which benefits from additional funding to give more time and more ability to hire more people to make more stuff.
I have a good idea of how things look to an embittered vet from the outside, and I've always empathized with that. At the same time, I've never been able to state entirely how shitty things looked from the inside because that made people even less likely to support us. And things were very, very shitty. We're doing a lot better now, thanks in part to outside funding we received to directly improve our own game and engine, with no strings attached, just because it makes other devices and platforms look good. Frankly, I consider those to be pretty awesome deals. Yes, they do take time away from the gameplay development, but the whole point is to fund the gameplay development (I mean, seriously, the first new guy I hired is an artist. Do you really think that's some kind of weird platform/technology investment?). And if I can do the same thing with a kickstarter that actually asks me to do nothing but gameplay development, well, that's about as ideal as it gets.
Now, let's try and re-focus this thread on its original goals of stuff people could buy through a kickstarter. If others want to create "what VO needs" and "Incarnate should die in a fire" threads, go do so elsewhere in Suggestions.
On the subject of what the Devs could give Kickstarter donors...
I will donate an "object of art", a mid sized painting of VO space combat. Donors choice of nation/ship. Or, if it might be better received... a painting of Incarnate 'dieing in fire"
Granted the average painting takes me about four to seven weeks... so the donation would have to represent the time spent.
I will donate an "object of art", a mid sized painting of VO space combat. Donors choice of nation/ship. Or, if it might be better received... a painting of Incarnate 'dieing in fire"
Granted the average painting takes me about four to seven weeks... so the donation would have to represent the time spent.
I stand by prints of the more iconic ships. It would be awesome to set little valk on top of my computer.
I will also pledge the original print of my massively copyright infringing original web comic "Peytros has a night out!" http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/7/23754#296065