Forums » Suggestions
Right now, there are advantages to killing your own turrets. At first, we were doing it because it had an extreme tactical advantage when there was no 2-minute timer. Now that there is a timer, there are still advantages to killing your own turret that is low on armor to allow it to re-spawn. However, most of us are restraining ourselves from doing it. We shouldn't have to restrain ourselves, and I'm sure not everyone will. There should be some actual game mechanics that discourage players from doing it. Eliminate the tactical advantages it currently provides. I think this deserves its own thread where we can discuss various possible ways to accomplish this.
First of all, I think most of us agree that if an owner or user attacks a turret, that turret should defend itself, at least until the player leaves the sector. Right now they just sit there and you can shoot them all day and they'll never shoot back. Should all the turrets attack the player, or just that one? Should they continue to consider the player hostile even after they leave the sector or dock? If so, for how long?
I think that if a player actually destroys a turret, their key should be automatically revoked. At the very least, this would prevent a single player from killing all the turrets alone to give him or herself a promotion to owner. After they killed the first turret, they would no longer have a key, and there would be no one else to give them one. It would also prevent multiple users from killing a turret to allow it to re-spawn during an attack if an owner wasn't online. However, even if there were multiple key holders online, including an owner, it would still be annoying to have to reissue a key every time someone blew up a turret.
These two changes would definitely help diminish the current advantages of blowing up your own turrets, but wouldn't solve the problem completely. Players could still kill their own turret when it was low on armor to allow it to re-spawn if an owner was online, and it wouldn't add any more than a minor annoyance. What other things can be implemented to discourage this behavior?
First of all, I think most of us agree that if an owner or user attacks a turret, that turret should defend itself, at least until the player leaves the sector. Right now they just sit there and you can shoot them all day and they'll never shoot back. Should all the turrets attack the player, or just that one? Should they continue to consider the player hostile even after they leave the sector or dock? If so, for how long?
I think that if a player actually destroys a turret, their key should be automatically revoked. At the very least, this would prevent a single player from killing all the turrets alone to give him or herself a promotion to owner. After they killed the first turret, they would no longer have a key, and there would be no one else to give them one. It would also prevent multiple users from killing a turret to allow it to re-spawn during an attack if an owner wasn't online. However, even if there were multiple key holders online, including an owner, it would still be annoying to have to reissue a key every time someone blew up a turret.
These two changes would definitely help diminish the current advantages of blowing up your own turrets, but wouldn't solve the problem completely. Players could still kill their own turret when it was low on armor to allow it to re-spawn if an owner was online, and it wouldn't add any more than a minor annoyance. What other things can be implemented to discourage this behavior?
i liked my suggestion from the other thread. you are fined 10 mil for killing your own turrets.
Turrets and people with owner/user keys are one of those rare instances where I think FF is ideal. I don't want to get hurt by my own turret fire/splash while defending, and for gameplay reasons I don't want anyone able - not just punished after the fact, but able at all - to fuck over attackers with the sort of bullshit that strat and other of his ilk love to pull.
most of us are restraining ourselves from doing it Ha! This is the same group who cried long and loud about [CHRN] exploiting by concatapulting a turret, one time, only to turn around and do it themselves repeatedly. To say nothing of the constant "reconquering" their own station at the last moment. extreme tactical advantage is a nice way of saying "fucking douchebag asshole." And no, we never did that kill your own turret thing. It's classless, no different than the old abuse of /explode by people who were justly owned in PvP, and it's just not our style.
But boy is it [VPR] style.
most of us are restraining ourselves from doing it Ha! This is the same group who cried long and loud about [CHRN] exploiting by concatapulting a turret, one time, only to turn around and do it themselves repeatedly. To say nothing of the constant "reconquering" their own station at the last moment. extreme tactical advantage is a nice way of saying "fucking douchebag asshole." And no, we never did that kill your own turret thing. It's classless, no different than the old abuse of /explode by people who were justly owned in PvP, and it's just not our style.
But boy is it [VPR] style.
Bork.
Judge Robert H.?
No fine. No FF restriction. How about if a turret is killed by a key holder, it takes 30 minutes to re-spawn instead of 10?
Err, that would give a greater advantage to the keyholder retaking the station wouldn't it?
I think the easy solution would be to automatically revoke the players key if they do x amount of damage to a turret. If a keyholder destroys a turret then the system should revoke the entire set, so that ownership of the station reverts to no one.
As for all the other problems with the station conquest, the solution is obvious.
I think the easy solution would be to automatically revoke the players key if they do x amount of damage to a turret. If a keyholder destroys a turret then the system should revoke the entire set, so that ownership of the station reverts to no one.
As for all the other problems with the station conquest, the solution is obvious.
No FF restriction.
Why not? I cannot think of a single valid reason for someone with a key to be allowed to harm their own station's turret. Period.
Magic shields are, as a general rule, bad. But in this case, what would be worse is someone "taking one for the team" and killing their own turret(s) at a critical moment in a station assault, only to be given a new key or whatever pissant penalty you suggest later on.
Why not? I cannot think of a single valid reason for someone with a key to be allowed to harm their own station's turret. Period.
Magic shields are, as a general rule, bad. But in this case, what would be worse is someone "taking one for the team" and killing their own turret(s) at a critical moment in a station assault, only to be given a new key or whatever pissant penalty you suggest later on.
Alternatives already proposed:
1) Turrets FIRE BACK when shot, even by owner, and generates a TEMP KoS that includes other turrets AND station. The pilot cannot dock, and must leave sector.
2) Fine. Expensive. Ever-doubling. If killer does not have enough credits, takes from every other key owner!
3) More radical, if turret is destroyed by owner, whole station gets LOCKED for the whole owner group. Until it respawns. If killed by friendly, report to owner, shoot back and Temp KoS. So if owner kills the turret, his group cannot dock, but anyone else not holding key can!
1) Turrets FIRE BACK when shot, even by owner, and generates a TEMP KoS that includes other turrets AND station. The pilot cannot dock, and must leave sector.
2) Fine. Expensive. Ever-doubling. If killer does not have enough credits, takes from every other key owner!
3) More radical, if turret is destroyed by owner, whole station gets LOCKED for the whole owner group. Until it respawns. If killed by friendly, report to owner, shoot back and Temp KoS. So if owner kills the turret, his group cannot dock, but anyone else not holding key can!
Implement either a 10 million credit fine, or a permanent revocation of the entire key chain, or preferably both. Nothing less is acceptable.
I would agree with Lecter that FF protection would be appropriate here, but I really agree with Maalik in an earlier thread that precedent for adding FF protection back into the game would be a Very Bad Thing.
I would agree with Lecter that FF protection would be appropriate here, but I really agree with Maalik in an earlier thread that precedent for adding FF protection back into the game would be a Very Bad Thing.
if you don't want someone to do something you have to actually make them suffer some kind of punishment not just oh 30 more minutes till that turret respawns. No it needs to be something serious or else it wont work.
3% per minute repair rate with a 40 minute respawn rate.
I stand by my argument that, absent some sort of brutal key revocation system affecting all "owners" and "users," no penalty will prevent people from taking one for the team and killing their own turrets at critical points. [VPR] and [TGFT]'s behavior on this front shows that many players cannot be expected to avoid near-exploitive game mechanics based on a sense of fair play. But the highly punitive key-revocation mechanic would itself be subject to abuse by "moles" who gain a user key and then kill a turret to screw over those who gave them the key in the first place.
The behavior has no value whatsoever and utterly preventing it via a very narrow FF restriction has no bad side effects aside from offending some purists. Anyone with a key of any kind should have FF with the turrets: they cannot hurt you, and you cannot hurt them. Problem fixed, using what should be a pre-existing mechanic.
The behavior has no value whatsoever and utterly preventing it via a very narrow FF restriction has no bad side effects aside from offending some purists. Anyone with a key of any kind should have FF with the turrets: they cannot hurt you, and you cannot hurt them. Problem fixed, using what should be a pre-existing mechanic.
No FF restriction because seomeone could give you a user key that you have no way to get rid of to stop you from doing damage and obtaining an owner key. Plus, I just think it sets a bad precedent. I'd rather avoid it.
How about if a single player delivers 50% worth of damage to the turrets within an hour, their key is revoked. This damage is counted across the turrets, so you would also lose your key if you got 2 turrets down to 75%, etc... If you destroy a turret, your key is revoked. The turrets will also defend themselves from key holders if attacked. Lastly, if a turret is killed by a key holder, it takes 30 minutes to respawn instead of 10.
I think that covers every scenario nicely, no?
How about if a single player delivers 50% worth of damage to the turrets within an hour, their key is revoked. This damage is counted across the turrets, so you would also lose your key if you got 2 turrets down to 75%, etc... If you destroy a turret, your key is revoked. The turrets will also defend themselves from key holders if attacked. Lastly, if a turret is killed by a key holder, it takes 30 minutes to respawn instead of 10.
I think that covers every scenario nicely, no?
No, it doesn't cover the scenario. It simply adds some hurdles to one player being able to screw over a bunch of attackers if they're willing to lose a key. They're still perfectly able to do it.
I agree that the defensive giving of keys is a problem -- as the key system now stands. Obviously you should be able to refuse a key. Problem with FF solved.
I agree that the defensive giving of keys is a problem -- as the key system now stands. Obviously you should be able to refuse a key. Problem with FF solved.
There is no advantage to killing your own turret while defending the station if it will take 30 minutes to re-spawn. If you don't think 30 minutes is enough, make it 40.
ITT: strat claims need for discouraging killing ones turrets, only likes suggestions that still have a work around for killing ones own turrets.
People will always find ways to kill their own turrets, whether it be by themselves or with someone who's not keyed to do it for them. What we need to do is eliminate the motive for killing turrets, which is pretty much how every other game handles a similar situation. The last motive was easily destroyed with a very simple 2 minute wait until the station can be taken, but that update also decreased respawn time for turrets. Occam's Razor, let's get right to the source of the motive again and directly reverse it. 30-45 minute respawn should do.
You're right, peytros. I'm not trying to prevent people from being able to destroy their own turrets. That would never work. People will find a way if they want to. Change things so they no longer want to do it. I'm trying to change the game mechanics so there is no longer any advantage to killing your own turrets. We need to eliminate the motivation.
I'm trying to change the game mechanics so there is no longer any advantage to killing your own turrets.
Your distinction, like so much else you post, is a lie. The same dodge exists for both FF and for any penalty you wish to impose: have the turret destroyed by someone who isn't a key-holder.
Anything else duplicitous to add, strat?
Your distinction, like so much else you post, is a lie. The same dodge exists for both FF and for any penalty you wish to impose: have the turret destroyed by someone who isn't a key-holder.
Anything else duplicitous to add, strat?