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All this stuff about banning X player....
Really, does it help things to go posting whiny and inflammatory threads in this forum?
I hate griefers, I hate exploiters even more, but what I've found that motivates most of these people is the response they get from the masses. What happens when you stop feeding a troll? It goes and finds food elsewhere. Quite a few people have come in and out of this game, looking for different victims, fresh meat to harass, and fresh kindling to light. We'll always have these people, there's simply nothing you can do about it.
On the flip side, John, Andy, Ray, [edit]Michael[/edit-RR], why hasnt SOMETHING been done about these folk(s)? Simple business sense dictates that if one of your customers is causing you to lose other (paying) customers, you eliminate the first customer. Granted, you may lose one, or even two, but that's another $20 a month, and if that kind of thing keeps going on, you're going to lose more and more customers, and less people will be attracted to the game. What's up?
Lastly, to you, Mr. Griefer, can you not cut the community a little break? People come to games to enjoy themselves, as I'm sure you're trying to do also, but a simple rule of social interaction should apply to you. Your fun shouldnt continually disrupt other folk's fun. Now I know you want to play pirate, fine and well, hell I've done it a few times, and it's part of the game. However, you really, really shouldnt be specifically targeting people just to get a rise out of it. And yes, tack it on to "roleplaying" or "broken game mechanics" all you want, but you KNOW you're doing a disservice to everyone involved. In short, get a life, one that doesnt involve feeding off other people's misery.
I hate griefers, I hate exploiters even more, but what I've found that motivates most of these people is the response they get from the masses. What happens when you stop feeding a troll? It goes and finds food elsewhere. Quite a few people have come in and out of this game, looking for different victims, fresh meat to harass, and fresh kindling to light. We'll always have these people, there's simply nothing you can do about it.
On the flip side, John, Andy, Ray, [edit]Michael[/edit-RR], why hasnt SOMETHING been done about these folk(s)? Simple business sense dictates that if one of your customers is causing you to lose other (paying) customers, you eliminate the first customer. Granted, you may lose one, or even two, but that's another $20 a month, and if that kind of thing keeps going on, you're going to lose more and more customers, and less people will be attracted to the game. What's up?
Lastly, to you, Mr. Griefer, can you not cut the community a little break? People come to games to enjoy themselves, as I'm sure you're trying to do also, but a simple rule of social interaction should apply to you. Your fun shouldnt continually disrupt other folk's fun. Now I know you want to play pirate, fine and well, hell I've done it a few times, and it's part of the game. However, you really, really shouldnt be specifically targeting people just to get a rise out of it. And yes, tack it on to "roleplaying" or "broken game mechanics" all you want, but you KNOW you're doing a disservice to everyone involved. In short, get a life, one that doesnt involve feeding off other people's misery.
I understand where you're coming from and a lot of what you say makes sense, AlienB. Unfortunately the solution isn't as easy as it sounds. This is a game which by design is supposed to give the player the freedom to choose whatever gameplay style they want, no matter how well behaved it may or may not be. There will of course be consequences to certain actions, through various in-game features. But they're meant to be choices for you to make.
If you start to make personal exceptions with everyone you come across, like for example someone who begs not to be attacked, then you're kind of breaking away from that design philosophy. That's where the fun starts breaking apart. And sooner or later everyone is going to start to demand that sort of exception of peace, for every time they encounter something hostile. And anytime someone breaks that, all hell will break loose and people will start to gather a mob together to get those certain individuals banned. The minority get no protection at all.
I mean it's a real shame it has come to this. It was never my intention for it to get this far, to be honest. But I really think a lot of people are overreacting, to the point where it's either their personal game or it's no game at all. And well that's just not fair since the game really doesn't belong to anyone or any group in particular. Like any MMORPG it's designed to be a free universe of endless possibilities. When you start to punish players for doing certain things that the game allows, you're going against the very thing which the game is designed for.
While I realize the devs are currently overworked and understaffed right now, it still doesn't change the fact that it's ultimately their responsibility to design the game in a way which it was intended to be played. That includes fixing bugs and adding features which will gently guide players toward a desirable and accepted mode of gameplay.
That sort of thing is lacking right now. And as a result people who role play in two completely different ways will eventually clash and cause some friction within the community. This will eventually be fixed. But in the meantime I see no grounds as to why anyone should be banned for technically playing the game as it is right now. It's a real shame that not many people can get past their own personal grudges to see that.
If you start to make personal exceptions with everyone you come across, like for example someone who begs not to be attacked, then you're kind of breaking away from that design philosophy. That's where the fun starts breaking apart. And sooner or later everyone is going to start to demand that sort of exception of peace, for every time they encounter something hostile. And anytime someone breaks that, all hell will break loose and people will start to gather a mob together to get those certain individuals banned. The minority get no protection at all.
I mean it's a real shame it has come to this. It was never my intention for it to get this far, to be honest. But I really think a lot of people are overreacting, to the point where it's either their personal game or it's no game at all. And well that's just not fair since the game really doesn't belong to anyone or any group in particular. Like any MMORPG it's designed to be a free universe of endless possibilities. When you start to punish players for doing certain things that the game allows, you're going against the very thing which the game is designed for.
While I realize the devs are currently overworked and understaffed right now, it still doesn't change the fact that it's ultimately their responsibility to design the game in a way which it was intended to be played. That includes fixing bugs and adding features which will gently guide players toward a desirable and accepted mode of gameplay.
That sort of thing is lacking right now. And as a result people who role play in two completely different ways will eventually clash and cause some friction within the community. This will eventually be fixed. But in the meantime I see no grounds as to why anyone should be banned for technically playing the game as it is right now. It's a real shame that not many people can get past their own personal grudges to see that.
Bans don't solve anything... except cheating.
One person has been singled out as an example of a player-type that people find annoying.
This type of behaviour is not cheating, it just makes the game less fun for other people, and thus they want a way to show their disapproval in a tangible way.
And, as is the case when people are angry, they suggest a solution that is a bit too extreme.
We just need a workable/non-abusable solution for those people to be able to show their disapproval.
-Zoras
One person has been singled out as an example of a player-type that people find annoying.
This type of behaviour is not cheating, it just makes the game less fun for other people, and thus they want a way to show their disapproval in a tangible way.
And, as is the case when people are angry, they suggest a solution that is a bit too extreme.
We just need a workable/non-abusable solution for those people to be able to show their disapproval.
-Zoras
I don't really hold a grudge against you any longer, nor was my post directed at you or any other specific person, so please do not try to dismiss what I'm writing here.
As you said, the devs are underfunded, understaffed, and overloaded, but as my first post mentioned, people that cause Guild software to lose customers need to be stopped in one form or another. John has said several times that he would personally turn the game into a flying pack of pink unicorns if that's what it took to feed his employees. Since, as you noted, they really dont have the time to go through and complete the game, (in particular, the consequences for people that choose the "griefer" gameplay style) then they may need to take a more personal approach to dealing with these situations. The EULA could be interpreted as forbidding these kinds of behaviors.
I really have no idea what the solution to all these problems are, but I'd really hate to see Vendetta lose the one thing it has left, it's community. TacticalOps, a popular Unreal Tournament mod, went to the dust because of the infighting on balance issues, personal attacks between the players, and what have you, and I do NOT want to see that happen here.
As you said, the devs are underfunded, understaffed, and overloaded, but as my first post mentioned, people that cause Guild software to lose customers need to be stopped in one form or another. John has said several times that he would personally turn the game into a flying pack of pink unicorns if that's what it took to feed his employees. Since, as you noted, they really dont have the time to go through and complete the game, (in particular, the consequences for people that choose the "griefer" gameplay style) then they may need to take a more personal approach to dealing with these situations. The EULA could be interpreted as forbidding these kinds of behaviors.
I really have no idea what the solution to all these problems are, but I'd really hate to see Vendetta lose the one thing it has left, it's community. TacticalOps, a popular Unreal Tournament mod, went to the dust because of the infighting on balance issues, personal attacks between the players, and what have you, and I do NOT want to see that happen here.
I designed this game the way I did because this is the game I wanted to make. Or, at least it's an unfinished, somewhat broken version of the game I wanted to make. That includes open PVP. If people complain about someone using open PVP in the game, in a way that I'm not sure is even "wrong" as I've defined it, then yes, I have trouble just banning someone. Moreover, that's a slippery slope.. I never condoned the way Arolte played the game, but I was unwilling to do the knee-jerk thing and just remove him. So, a few weeks ago I took the "soft" route and talked to him, to buy myself some time and try and find a more equitable solution.
This would all be trivial if I had simply wanted to make a carebear game in the first place. If our game was PvE like almost every other MMO, or turn based like all of them (other than Planetside?), this would be trivial to deal with. But, I wanted to make something totally realtime, PVP, and with the feeling that anything could happen anywhere. An in-game tension that is simply not present in most other games.
Developing a game is like.. anything creative. Writing a book. Painting a picture. I'm not saying that it's High Art or anything, but it boils down to the same points of.. some people may like it, and some people won't. If I give up on the core tenets of what I wanted to create and capitulate to the ever-shifting desires of a populace, then I lose all sense of what the hell I'm doing. I will not give up PVP and I will not give up my core intentions for Vendetta Online. And if I believe that doing some simple-seeming task, like banning Arolte, seriously threatens that, then I will not back down until I find an alternative. There is almost always an equitable solution, and this situation is no different, as we finally discovered today after some drama.
I hate to lose users. But, on the other hand, I feel I am also charged with the responsibility of creating a "space game of our dreams" for many of the people who support us, that same game of my own dreams. I am not completely clueless as a businessman, I dislike to lose paying people. I dislike much, much more losing people who really care about our game and have been driven away by misunderstandings, miscommunications, and/or my own mistakes. But, ultimately I serve the goal of creating the game that's in my head. I cannot make things for Everyone. I can only shoot to make the game that I really want, and hope that other people enjoy it, and talk to them when they don't. And it's that last part, the talking/communicating that really failed this time.
The Simple, Trivial or Easy thing isn't always the best thing to do. Some people think I was backing up Arolte because I didn't instantly penalize him, but that was never the case. I greatly dislike the way he plays. He simply happened to fall into a particular area that I *was* willing to defend, which was the basic PVP nature of the game. I set out to create the most impossible of all games, the one where you can do anything. If things happen that cause people to find the game extremely un-fun because of someone misusing the game, I don't find fault with the player, I find fault with myself and my design. I don't instantly say "well, you can't do that" and kick them off. I say "well, why can't they, and what checks and balances should be in place to make sure they don't abuse it the way they are." This is part philosophy and part necessity. Some games are just very flawed and rely on a large base of administrative personnel to track down and kick off anyone who abuses the system. I don't have the luxury of this, so I need to create a game that's more difficult to abuse, and *when* abuse does occur, allow the game's population to self-organize and deal with the issue in some way. I would like Vendetta Online to be self-sufficient.
Anyway, that's a lot of words and I'm getting pretty tired. The other thing was, I didn't completely *understand* the complaint. It didn't make sense that people were complaining about someone killing them, given the nature of our game. Now that the exploitation stuff has come to light, it makes a bit more sense.
I have never banned anyone from our game, ever. Oh, we've had timed "bans" put in place by Guides before and such, for problem trial signups and whatnot, but I've never permanently banned anyone. I'm not terribly eager to rush out and do this, and if I'm going to do it, I damn well better understand why it needs to take place, and not just be capitulating to instantly mollify an unhappy population. If we lose some users in the process (as we have here, and as painful as that is) the game is still better for having figured out what's actually *wrong*. If I fix the real problem, then Arolte and the million other Aroltes out there can do as they will, and still co-exist with the population.
Anyway, I'm not even clear if I'm answering the question anymore. So, g'night.
This would all be trivial if I had simply wanted to make a carebear game in the first place. If our game was PvE like almost every other MMO, or turn based like all of them (other than Planetside?), this would be trivial to deal with. But, I wanted to make something totally realtime, PVP, and with the feeling that anything could happen anywhere. An in-game tension that is simply not present in most other games.
Developing a game is like.. anything creative. Writing a book. Painting a picture. I'm not saying that it's High Art or anything, but it boils down to the same points of.. some people may like it, and some people won't. If I give up on the core tenets of what I wanted to create and capitulate to the ever-shifting desires of a populace, then I lose all sense of what the hell I'm doing. I will not give up PVP and I will not give up my core intentions for Vendetta Online. And if I believe that doing some simple-seeming task, like banning Arolte, seriously threatens that, then I will not back down until I find an alternative. There is almost always an equitable solution, and this situation is no different, as we finally discovered today after some drama.
I hate to lose users. But, on the other hand, I feel I am also charged with the responsibility of creating a "space game of our dreams" for many of the people who support us, that same game of my own dreams. I am not completely clueless as a businessman, I dislike to lose paying people. I dislike much, much more losing people who really care about our game and have been driven away by misunderstandings, miscommunications, and/or my own mistakes. But, ultimately I serve the goal of creating the game that's in my head. I cannot make things for Everyone. I can only shoot to make the game that I really want, and hope that other people enjoy it, and talk to them when they don't. And it's that last part, the talking/communicating that really failed this time.
The Simple, Trivial or Easy thing isn't always the best thing to do. Some people think I was backing up Arolte because I didn't instantly penalize him, but that was never the case. I greatly dislike the way he plays. He simply happened to fall into a particular area that I *was* willing to defend, which was the basic PVP nature of the game. I set out to create the most impossible of all games, the one where you can do anything. If things happen that cause people to find the game extremely un-fun because of someone misusing the game, I don't find fault with the player, I find fault with myself and my design. I don't instantly say "well, you can't do that" and kick them off. I say "well, why can't they, and what checks and balances should be in place to make sure they don't abuse it the way they are." This is part philosophy and part necessity. Some games are just very flawed and rely on a large base of administrative personnel to track down and kick off anyone who abuses the system. I don't have the luxury of this, so I need to create a game that's more difficult to abuse, and *when* abuse does occur, allow the game's population to self-organize and deal with the issue in some way. I would like Vendetta Online to be self-sufficient.
Anyway, that's a lot of words and I'm getting pretty tired. The other thing was, I didn't completely *understand* the complaint. It didn't make sense that people were complaining about someone killing them, given the nature of our game. Now that the exploitation stuff has come to light, it makes a bit more sense.
I have never banned anyone from our game, ever. Oh, we've had timed "bans" put in place by Guides before and such, for problem trial signups and whatnot, but I've never permanently banned anyone. I'm not terribly eager to rush out and do this, and if I'm going to do it, I damn well better understand why it needs to take place, and not just be capitulating to instantly mollify an unhappy population. If we lose some users in the process (as we have here, and as painful as that is) the game is still better for having figured out what's actually *wrong*. If I fix the real problem, then Arolte and the million other Aroltes out there can do as they will, and still co-exist with the population.
Anyway, I'm not even clear if I'm answering the question anymore. So, g'night.
You did answer the question, incarnate. Well said. Very well said.
I can't believe people would leave because of this.
I can't believe people would leave because of this.
When I log in there are so many different routes I can take to have fun...I can be Smittens, and try to rouse up a BP group (well I guess not anymore) or host a Smittens' Vendetta Quiz Show of Awesome-idity (plug plug), or just challenge whatever Serco that's online. Or I can switch over to Starbucks Ninja and do my best at pirating, prox-mine-kami-kazing, etc etc. If one of the things I do pisses people off, I'll first try to talk about it with them, and if that fails I'll just switch over to do something else.
There is so much to do in this game.
Now why, WHY if you're doing something that pisses people off do you continue to do it? Why are you STILL doing it when players who add so much content to the game (do we really want another lack-of-Blak?) are driven away because of you? Now I admit I haven't read every detail of every post, but I don't really think I need to. Someone is SERIOUSLY pissing off someone else. I really don't at all care what your justification is for it, the point is that someone is being denied the enjoyment of the game they PAY for because of YOU.
I guess I live in an idealistic world and that those people currently considered griefers won't change for reading this, but seriously, just stop. Maybe you're just having fun, maybe you're trying to teach a lesson, maybe you're life is so fscked up that the only thing you can do other than suicide is attempt to make other people feel as horrible as you. If the first is the case, try something new. If the second is the case, get off your ego-trip and realize that you aren't the chosen one who has to enlighten everyone, leave it to someone who is designing the game. If the third is the case...well, it definitely doesn't support your actions, but I'm truely sorry.
There is so much to do in this game.
Now why, WHY if you're doing something that pisses people off do you continue to do it? Why are you STILL doing it when players who add so much content to the game (do we really want another lack-of-Blak?) are driven away because of you? Now I admit I haven't read every detail of every post, but I don't really think I need to. Someone is SERIOUSLY pissing off someone else. I really don't at all care what your justification is for it, the point is that someone is being denied the enjoyment of the game they PAY for because of YOU.
I guess I live in an idealistic world and that those people currently considered griefers won't change for reading this, but seriously, just stop. Maybe you're just having fun, maybe you're trying to teach a lesson, maybe you're life is so fscked up that the only thing you can do other than suicide is attempt to make other people feel as horrible as you. If the first is the case, try something new. If the second is the case, get off your ego-trip and realize that you aren't the chosen one who has to enlighten everyone, leave it to someone who is designing the game. If the third is the case...well, it definitely doesn't support your actions, but I'm truely sorry.
I would like to appologize to you incarnate, You are a saint. And a better man then i am. Please get some rest and you will be better prepared for the same thing tommorow.
Ok guys let us acually give the developers some input. Post to one of these threads to give suggestions for stoping the problem of griefing or using game exploits:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11215
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11201
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11200
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11199
JB
Ok guys let us acually give the developers some input. Post to one of these threads to give suggestions for stoping the problem of griefing or using game exploits:
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11215
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11201
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11200
http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/11199
JB
You know, I love the idea of this game, I love that PvP is everpresent, and that, theoretically, we can create much of the game ourselves.
I love the, as Apex put it, kung fu style of the game.
But I still feel like, for all that we can create and learn, we have no power to stop/deterr this kind of gameplay, and as long as it exists, and keeps people, who have been historically INCREDIBLY helpful to the game, from playing, then I see no reason to play with it. Its just a source of frustration.
(this debate has been outlined as an argument between BLAK and Arolte, but the truth is that this has happened many times to many groups, it just happens that BLAK is VERY vocal about our opinions.
We tend to be very active, we spend most of our time trying to promote interesting gameplay, via creating numerous alts to generate player created content, SKV vs the 240th for example)
And we, as a group have always put as our primary goal, making sure that everyone has fun. It's why BLAK members will spend a good deal of their time mentoring and trying to get new players involved in the conflicts around.
BLAK may be an inclusive group, we've kinda held the recruiting philosophy that "Anyone who is pushing hard to get in our guild should not be in it". But that's never stopped us from forming friendships with a good deal of the community.
This is why Arolte offends us. His philosophy is entirely personal. He doesn't give a shit for the community. And as I've said numerous times now, there is nothing that the community can do to stop him. Until that changes, there's simply no reason for me to play.
Here are my suggestions,
1. Make running away from a fight hard, very hard, force people to take responsibility for their actions and decisions to frequent certain areas. There's nothing wrong with dying, but when a person can continue harassment at no cost to themselves, allowing them to continue indefinitely, there's a problem.
2. Give guides an active role, and a mission to make sure that nothing goes over the line. They don't need to ban, it should never get that far. They just need to step in when conversations are becoming incensed and remind people to "Be Nice"
I love the, as Apex put it, kung fu style of the game.
But I still feel like, for all that we can create and learn, we have no power to stop/deterr this kind of gameplay, and as long as it exists, and keeps people, who have been historically INCREDIBLY helpful to the game, from playing, then I see no reason to play with it. Its just a source of frustration.
(this debate has been outlined as an argument between BLAK and Arolte, but the truth is that this has happened many times to many groups, it just happens that BLAK is VERY vocal about our opinions.
We tend to be very active, we spend most of our time trying to promote interesting gameplay, via creating numerous alts to generate player created content, SKV vs the 240th for example)
And we, as a group have always put as our primary goal, making sure that everyone has fun. It's why BLAK members will spend a good deal of their time mentoring and trying to get new players involved in the conflicts around.
BLAK may be an inclusive group, we've kinda held the recruiting philosophy that "Anyone who is pushing hard to get in our guild should not be in it". But that's never stopped us from forming friendships with a good deal of the community.
This is why Arolte offends us. His philosophy is entirely personal. He doesn't give a shit for the community. And as I've said numerous times now, there is nothing that the community can do to stop him. Until that changes, there's simply no reason for me to play.
Here are my suggestions,
1. Make running away from a fight hard, very hard, force people to take responsibility for their actions and decisions to frequent certain areas. There's nothing wrong with dying, but when a person can continue harassment at no cost to themselves, allowing them to continue indefinitely, there's a problem.
2. Give guides an active role, and a mission to make sure that nothing goes over the line. They don't need to ban, it should never get that far. They just need to step in when conversations are becoming incensed and remind people to "Be Nice"
I know this is going to be an unpupular statment, but on some level we need people like Arolte.
Let's look at the positive things that his jerky behavior has one:
1. he has given us a "bad guy" to fight. Everyone can't always be the good guys, and while most of the bad guy characters are more gentelmanly, having somone who is your enemy and you will always fight them at every opertunity can be interesting and fun in of itself.
2. this is probably the more inportant one in the long run: he tests the rules. What are the Dev's willing to do about one rogue player who is anoying several well established veterans? What hapens when a player uses the in-game enviroment to be anoying? Is there a way these tactics can be discouraged without killing the core idea of the game?
Personaly, i agree with the consensus that if something you do offends others in the comunity you should find a compromise, that allows you to have your fun while not tormenting them.
Another solution (and this may not be too cosher with the rules of conduct if it got out of hand) is to fight back. If player X is terorizing player Y, the Player Y should call on other players and or guilds to help put an end to player X's tyrany.
And finaly, the most obvious way to solve these problem is with discussion. Although i'm not online very often I will take this opertunity to offer the services of M'at acting leader of Eo's Path as an arbiter for any such disputes. I would assume that any of the guides would be willing to do the same as well, as you know, that's part of their job description.
Let's look at the positive things that his jerky behavior has one:
1. he has given us a "bad guy" to fight. Everyone can't always be the good guys, and while most of the bad guy characters are more gentelmanly, having somone who is your enemy and you will always fight them at every opertunity can be interesting and fun in of itself.
2. this is probably the more inportant one in the long run: he tests the rules. What are the Dev's willing to do about one rogue player who is anoying several well established veterans? What hapens when a player uses the in-game enviroment to be anoying? Is there a way these tactics can be discouraged without killing the core idea of the game?
Personaly, i agree with the consensus that if something you do offends others in the comunity you should find a compromise, that allows you to have your fun while not tormenting them.
Another solution (and this may not be too cosher with the rules of conduct if it got out of hand) is to fight back. If player X is terorizing player Y, the Player Y should call on other players and or guilds to help put an end to player X's tyrany.
And finaly, the most obvious way to solve these problem is with discussion. Although i'm not online very often I will take this opertunity to offer the services of M'at acting leader of Eo's Path as an arbiter for any such disputes. I would assume that any of the guides would be willing to do the same as well, as you know, that's part of their job description.
Well sure, having Arolte as a bad guy can be a good thing. Except that I'd like a way to fight the bad guy.
I WOULD LOVE to fight Arolte, but there is no fighting him, you can't win, you can't stop or even delay it.
I WOULD LOVE to fight Arolte, but there is no fighting him, you can't win, you can't stop or even delay it.
Ya know after reading alot of whats been goin on and having time to think about it, I find it very interesting that the core and heart of the story line for the very game we all play is the same prevalent factor in the recent turmoil. The simple fact that humanity has its bad apples, so to speak. In the story line, this beast rears its head several times. In the forums, well that should be obviious. Anyway this also birngs to light one other fact. That not only does humainty have its inherrent bad apples, but it also has the flip side and has many more people who are willing to do just about whatever it takes to ensure happiness or atleast contentment among the masses.(as massive or not as they may be) At anyrate what this game has that most real life situations does not is someone who truly cares about what he believes in. And he believes in this game and in the people who play this game. I have always respected Incarnate (and the rest of the devs) but I think now, that even I have far underestimated him.
So heres to you Incarnate. For being a far better person than many of us ever will; for giving us all an excellent game; and for showing us what it means to believe in something.
Thank You,
-Seta Solenk
So heres to you Incarnate. For being a far better person than many of us ever will; for giving us all an excellent game; and for showing us what it means to believe in something.
Thank You,
-Seta Solenk
Imagine vendetta without Arolte phoenix laika archon and all these bad pirates who make you miseries, it would not be any more Vendetta;It is the gasoline even of this play (for me,it's a MMORPG). When you ask a question has a technocrat, when that's answered, you do not understand the question that you posed to him. Arolte you are always a narvallo ... ((héhhéhé) or (hohoho)
TertiorBadJoke Support Vendetta against hegemony wow
>Banzaiiiiii
TertiorBadJoke Support Vendetta against hegemony wow
>Banzaiiiiii
Thank you Incarnate for your post, I fully support your view on the importance of PvP, its what makes this game great.
As someone who has played role playing games of one sort or another for over 30 years, I also fully support the person behind the 'Arolte' character to play him any way he chooses.
Every mythos has it's bad guys. Some bad guys have an honour code(even the devil honours a contract), some bad guys disrespect all laws, and social norms and just look out for number one, and some chose to ignore some laws, but observe others.
One thing is for sure, if everyone went around being 'nice' to oneanother, the game would be totally boring. The 'be nice' rule applies to chat, and message boards, not gameplay.
If a player chooses to play an evil viscious killer of a character, then just accept their choice, and roleplay your characters response to them, dont run crying to the devs.
As someone who has played role playing games of one sort or another for over 30 years, I also fully support the person behind the 'Arolte' character to play him any way he chooses.
Every mythos has it's bad guys. Some bad guys have an honour code(even the devil honours a contract), some bad guys disrespect all laws, and social norms and just look out for number one, and some chose to ignore some laws, but observe others.
One thing is for sure, if everyone went around being 'nice' to oneanother, the game would be totally boring. The 'be nice' rule applies to chat, and message boards, not gameplay.
If a player chooses to play an evil viscious killer of a character, then just accept their choice, and roleplay your characters response to them, dont run crying to the devs.
Ming, this is not about being nice. this is not about not doing PVP. this is not about responding to someone who plays a vicious killer. we want non-concentual PVP, we want people to be able to play assholes.
thing is, people think we've been complaining about being killed, well, we're not. I've been killed twice by Arolte, back in late June. he doesn't *get* to kill me, but he gets to harass me into being unable to play by following me around and taking potshots at me. I *can* go elsewhere, but in a community with 15 people online, I can go elsewhere and be alone. for some reason, I don't bother. catching a running Valk is also almost impossible, so hey, what'cha going to do? the game is broken, and the devs admit it. just because you can harass people doesn't mean all of us find it acceptable.
I would also like to point out that when we first complained about this (trams locked post, go look), the comment was that we didn't want him banned, we wanted someone to stop the harassment. as far as I know, comments where made to Arolte to change his ways, but it didn't change anything.
one month later, nothing has changed. BUNNY gets station camped and leaves the game. for people who didn't play space quake (ie, beta and before) this isn't acceptable. this isn't space quake. and we're paying to play. if you're not having fun, you don't play, and if you don't play and don't see a hope for it to change, you don't pay.
so, Ming, as much as you'd like to imagine it's about us getting killed or not liking bad guys, you're wrong. the day you're unable to play since someone harasses you, you might change your mind, but I hope after this, that you won't see that day.
thing is, people think we've been complaining about being killed, well, we're not. I've been killed twice by Arolte, back in late June. he doesn't *get* to kill me, but he gets to harass me into being unable to play by following me around and taking potshots at me. I *can* go elsewhere, but in a community with 15 people online, I can go elsewhere and be alone. for some reason, I don't bother. catching a running Valk is also almost impossible, so hey, what'cha going to do? the game is broken, and the devs admit it. just because you can harass people doesn't mean all of us find it acceptable.
I would also like to point out that when we first complained about this (trams locked post, go look), the comment was that we didn't want him banned, we wanted someone to stop the harassment. as far as I know, comments where made to Arolte to change his ways, but it didn't change anything.
one month later, nothing has changed. BUNNY gets station camped and leaves the game. for people who didn't play space quake (ie, beta and before) this isn't acceptable. this isn't space quake. and we're paying to play. if you're not having fun, you don't play, and if you don't play and don't see a hope for it to change, you don't pay.
so, Ming, as much as you'd like to imagine it's about us getting killed or not liking bad guys, you're wrong. the day you're unable to play since someone harasses you, you might change your mind, but I hope after this, that you won't see that day.
I take your point terkjekv, hit and run tactics are annoying, but as in the real world, enemies will seek to harrass the other side by using such tactics. I have never experienced 'harrassment' from Arolte. I got player killed as a noob by Icarus, and Apex Azimuth, but I soon learned to cope with that, either run or fight. If groups of players are experiencing what they see as harrassment, can't they organise to combat such tactics? Surely groups could coordinate and report on Aroltes position, track him down and take him out? Keep at it, and then everytime he logs on he will feel hunted, and we will have a game.
I expect to be told I dont understand, or I dont know what I am talking about, I've heard it all recently. I just think that some of the recent complaints are just a bit more personal, than they purport to be, and it has become a battle of wills between the banners and the devs. Those players who have quit are just trying to force the devs into changing the game they have worked so hard to create. I salute the devs for sticking to their guns, and refusing to kowtow to this pressure.
p.s. I also think that it is about time that those who have cancelled their accounts, are excluded from making posts to this forum, give them read only priveliges, but I dont see why we should have to read their negative comments if they have already left the field.
I expect to be told I dont understand, or I dont know what I am talking about, I've heard it all recently. I just think that some of the recent complaints are just a bit more personal, than they purport to be, and it has become a battle of wills between the banners and the devs. Those players who have quit are just trying to force the devs into changing the game they have worked so hard to create. I salute the devs for sticking to their guns, and refusing to kowtow to this pressure.
p.s. I also think that it is about time that those who have cancelled their accounts, are excluded from making posts to this forum, give them read only priveliges, but I dont see why we should have to read their negative comments if they have already left the field.
how do you combat tactics that revolve around running? when someone flies a light Valk, they're pretty much impossible to catch if they know how to run. if you hunt him, he gets off on the attention and gloats, we've tried that. and if three or four good PVP people can't get him, I dare others to try. as I said, the game is broken in this regard today, everyone knows it.
and I say again, even now, I don't desire to see Arolte banned. I want the *behaviour* he represent to end. if he says "okay, I'll stop" and does so, fine!
heh, and if you don't want to read our negative comments, then don't. noone is forcing you to read the boards. you have a choice in that matter. we had less of that choice ingame. go figure. oh, and my account doesn't expire for quite a while anyway, so, uhm, yeah.
and I say again, even now, I don't desire to see Arolte banned. I want the *behaviour* he represent to end. if he says "okay, I'll stop" and does so, fine!
heh, and if you don't want to read our negative comments, then don't. noone is forcing you to read the boards. you have a choice in that matter. we had less of that choice ingame. go figure. oh, and my account doesn't expire for quite a while anyway, so, uhm, yeah.
This is ridiculous. It seems llike yuo guys are looking for something to fight about. Cant ya both just shut up? Atleast post constructive stuff. Everyone, yes EVERYONE needs to quit this petty bickering. Ive kids that dont whine as much as some people in this game. I mean a little at first was atleast tolerable but this is starting to get out of hand.
-Seta Solenk
-Seta Solenk
I agree fully. I quit - no more posts from me.
*sigh*
[locked] again. Guys, this is going nowhere. Please, for the love of whatever deity or lack thereof you respect, please quit cluttering up the board with these topics.
[locked] again. Guys, this is going nowhere. Please, for the love of whatever deity or lack thereof you respect, please quit cluttering up the board with these topics.